Survival Guns

This topic contains 107 replies, has 58 voices, and was last updated by  arielado 4 years, 2 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 108 total)
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  • #53934

    cdj_61
    Member

    The advice I’ve always given to persons wanting to buy their first handgun – and I’ve given this advice a lot in recent months – is this: get to a range, and try various makes/models/calibers until you find what you’re comfortable with. Weapons are intensely personal things, more so even than cars. You have to “test drive”, and see what works for you. If you have friends who own guns, ask to shoot them. If you’re fortunate enough to live near a range where you can rent various guns for an hour’s practice, try that.

    The key thing here is to go “hands-on”. I know of people who’ve carefully researched what sort of pistol they want. They’ve read online, studied specs, pored over Guns & Ammo magazines … but they haven’t actually handled or fired many guns. So, they go out and purchase their first pistol. And within a month or two, they discover they’re just not quite happy with it for one reason or another.

    If you’re wanting a plinker, a .22 LR is acceptable. However, if you intend to keep it as a defensive pistol, I would strongly suggest going no smaller than a 9mm. .22s make great little utility or plinker guns, and many of them are well-made. But I wouldn’t trust my life to a .22. Nor would I go with anything in .44 Magnum or larger: big calibers like .44 Mag, or the new .500 S&W Magnum actually perform quite poorly in defensive roles. That would leave you with 9mm, .38 special (revolvers only), .357 Magnum (revolvers), .357 Sig (semiautomatics), .40 S&W, 10mm, .45 ACP and .45 GAP.

    I’m a little uncomfortable with the concept of a single “survival gun”. Guns are tools, to be used where and when appropriate, and these circumstances can change. I’d suggest keeping both a pistol and a rifle … and probably a shotgun as well. Three guns for very different roles.

    There’s an old saying that goes, “A pistol is for when you don’t see trouble coming; a rifle is for when you do”. If you hear the proverbial crash somewhere inside your house at 3:00 AM, a pistol is much easier to bring to bear than a rifle. At the same time, a pistol has very limited power and range; if you have armed opponents 75 yards away, a pistol is generally going to be ineffective. On the other hand, if you live in a built-up, urban environment with a lot of potential innocent bystanders nearby, you probably (hopefully) would be very circumspect about letting fly with that shiny new .308 battle rifle you keep in the closet. Then again, if you live in an apartment building with stud-and-drywall construction, a .223 is actually less likely to penetrate into the neighbor’s bedroom than most service pistol calibers. Understand the characteristics of your arms, and what they’re capable – or not capable – of doing. Understand what niche a specific gun might occupy in your personal and unique circumstances.

    If you are a first-time gun owner, I cannot overemphasize what a huge responsibility firearm ownership is. Don’t rush out and buy a gun, then stick it up on the closet shelf or into the nightstand to languish. Take it to the range, and work with it. I’ve found that, for police, it usually takes about 800 -1000 rounds for a new shooter to become competent with a pistol, and about 400 rounds for a competent shooter to get good with a new pistol. Yeah, ammo is expensive. But the alternative is to have this nice paperweight laying around, only to have a crisis unexpectedly erupt, and you not being good enough with it to use it effectively. For that matter, don’t just leave your gun laying around – especially if you have kids in the house. I’m not a big fan of trigger locks you might be fumbling with as intruders make their way toward your bedroom. However, a gun vault is a good idea. Keeping a gun in the nightstand or – heaven forbid – under your pillow could spell disaster if the cat startles you at night, or if you have a nightmare. If you’re going to have a gun, it ought to be secure at all times, and out of arm’s reach when you sleep.

    The most important thing is your mindset. While you ought not be cavalier about having a gun in the house, you also shouldn’t be intimidated by it. Many people’s ideas of guns come from TV and movie images, where the hero’s (or villain’s) guns almost take on a persona, a life of their own. Guns are merely tools that will work only in whatever way – skillfully or awkwardly, wisely or foolishly – we operate them. Be competent, and be safe.

    #53935

    Danny62
    Member

    Agree with everthing you said. If for what ever reason you can not handle the bigger ie 9 mm and above no use in having one stick to your .22 or .25. I know some ladies that just can not handle the bigger frames due to hand size. But her little 22 she will put them all in you eye. Under stress I think she would do just about as good, did with some dogs that nice people dumped in the country. No us country folks do not take in every dog dumped on us and when hunger drives them into the chickens only thing left to do.
    I shoot Cowboy Action Shooting here at the local gun club. Don’t know how many have came down and ask about guns and they are out shooting after were are done. Revolvers, (some semi auto most of the time some one has one) rifles, there is all shape and sizes and shot guns most are 12 but a few of the women and kids use 16 or 20 dubbles, pumps and a lever action. Of course almost all reload everything including there hunnting rifles.
    Danny62

    #53936

    cdj_61
    Member

    @danny62 wrote:

    Agree with everthing you said. If for what ever reason you can not handle the bigger ie 9 mm and above no use in having one stick to your .22 or .25. I know some ladies that just can not handle the bigger frames due to hand size. But her little 22 she will put them all in you eye. Under stress I think she would do just about as good, did with some dogs that nice people dumped in the country. No us country folks do not take in every dog dumped on us and when hunger drives them into the chickens only thing left to do.
    I shoot Cowboy Action Shooting here at the local gun club. Don’t know how many have came down and ask about guns and they are out shooting after were are done. Revolvers, (some semi auto most of the time some one has one) rifles, there is all shape and sizes and shot guns most are 12 but a few of the women and kids use 16 or 20 dubbles, pumps and a lever action. Of course almost all reload everything including there hunnting rifles.
    Danny62

    Danny62: Cowboy Action Shooting is something I’ve always wanted to try. It looks like a blast! Unfortunately, I’m forced to spend my money on things other than Ruger Vaqueros of late. Maybe someday.

    Recoil sensitivity is a mental thing. My adventurous daughter had no qualms about firing my old Gov’t Model .45 when she was six years old. My wife, who weighs 115 lbs soaking wet, uses my previous duty weapon, an HK USP 45, as her house gun. She’s quite accurate with it, too, despite her smallish hands versus the blocky grip of the HK. Any gun will produce recoil; it’s just a psychological barrier as to whether or not a moderate bump in the palm of your hand scares you or not.

    #53937

    Danny62
    Member

    cdj_61
    I agree that most recoil is mental. But some don’t know. Had a boy about 7 maybe he wants to shoot cowboy he tried them all now the 12g was a little much but he was ready to shoot it a 2nd time. I had a Dan Wesson 44mag 8 inch barrel came with 2 barrels one ported and one not shot 6 rounds of to the nonported one and never shot that againg now the ported one I like and I could and did hit a 12in sq out to 200 yrds. Had to sell it worse mistake I ever made but at the time was the only one to make. Now would have to sell my house to try and buy one. Got a shoot close to you go out never know what kind of deals you will see.
    The one here someone is always wheeling and dealing.
    Good Luck
    Danny62

    #53938

    Ytierian
    Member

    Have to agree with the 22lr being a good all around gun – between my 60 year old Savage 6a (tube-fed semi-auto) and my 20 year old Ruger KMK-512 (bull-barrel clip-fed semi-auto) I can hunt just about anything I need to – the Ruger has never jammed on me (1000 rnds+) and the Savage has jammed occasionally, but I can clear it in under a minute – but with the Ruger on the hip and the Beretta (see next) in a shoulder holster, I have enough to keep the riff-raff off me till I can clear it

    Personal defense – I’m quite happy with my Beretta 85BB (.380ACP, 8 round clip) – load it with semi-jacketed hollow points and it’ll ruin someone’s day real quick – and after feeding close to 500 rounds through it, I’m quite accurate out to around 40 yards – and no jams – ever

    Birds and larger game – my 60 year old Savage 775A (12gauge semi-auto) – 30+ years of bird hunting with it, and I’ve never had to clear a jam

    Sometimes the older guns are the better ones

    #53939

    KS-shoe
    Member

    It really depends on what your “survival” needs AND expectations are.
    If your in the city ( God be with you by the way) your survival needs are drastically different than in a rural area.

    Personally, I think the best all around weapon is the shot gun. it covers both needs to a certain degree( and if your set up to shoot slugs then your even better off). I have several guns but if i had to defend myself from someone i want something that’s going to hit them with adrenalin pumping through my veins and my nerves at their highest level. I’m not a cop, I’m a realist, i don’t trust myself to put a half dozen rounds on target potentially in the dark with my heart pumping.

    And for those who own a pump shotgun you will know what i mean: “everyone speaks shotgun!”

    “Sometimes the most successful engagement is the one you were able to avoid”

    #53940

    Jericho
    Member

    I like the 7.62×51 /.308 for its ability to:
    turn cover into concealment…
    perform effectively at ranges requiring a good set of optics…
    take down most game…
    defeat personal protection systems…
    make a lot of noise were noise alone can win the day….

    Yes, the ammo is heavier than 5.56 and 22lr, and those have their place. But for a “takes yer pick” and only that, I’ll go with a good solid standard, with hitting power.

    #53941

    Muzhik
    Member

    @icefire wrote:

    As for ammo, I also have plenty saved up–my husband always prays that the house never catches fire, though, because that ammo going off could get REALLY ugly. Lucky for us, though, our son-in-law is one of the firemen who would be responding, and he knows to be careful. That, plus the fact that I have at LEAST two fire extinguishers on each floor of the house, where they’re easy to grab.

    Here’s an alternative: buy a safe that is fire-rated for electronic media. You can buy safes or safe inserts that are rated for paper (i.e., paper stored in it won’t catch fire) but electronic media (floppy disks, backup tapes, etc.) become unreadable at much lower temperatures. If you get such a safe (or a safe insert, i.e., a safe within a safe) you should be able to store your ammo in there safely.

    And if you want to take your chances with a paper-rated safe, then, hey! The ammo’s in a safe and won’t hit anyone when it goes off! 😆

    #53942

    cdj_61
    Member

    @jericho wrote:

    I like the 7.62×51 /.308 for its ability to:
    turn cover into concealment…
    perform effectively at ranges requiring a good set of optics…
    take down most game…
    defeat personal protection systems…
    make a lot of noise were noise alone can win the day….

    Yes, the ammo is heavier than 5.56 and 22lr, and those have their place. But for a “takes yer pick” and only that, I’ll go with a good solid standard, with hitting power.

    Yes, indeed! I’m a big fan of the mighty .308, and both the “Scout” and “Battle” rifle concepts … as opposed to the “Assault” rifle concept as a survival or personal defense weapon.

    “Assault” rifles, usually in calibers .223 (AR15, Mini-14, et al), or 7.62 x 39 (AK-47, SKS), are intended for use as follows: organized, squad-sized elements spraying bullets into the general area of an opponent, often at full-auto or “burst” rates of fire, as they advance toward the opponent. The key concept here is to have several friendlies so armed. A corollary is that a squad-sized (or larger) element using such weapons have access to vast amounts of ammunition, and no issues with resupply.

    “Assault” rifles, or their civilian counterparts, are accurate only to about 400 meters. Another limitation is that, at least in the case of AR15 variants, these weapons are designed to “inflict casualties” rather than kill. The military rightly thinks it is often more valuable to wound an opponent than to kill them – not out of any humanitarian impulse, but because wounded enemy soldiers place a logistical burden on enemy armies: wounded have to be evacuated and treated, after all.

    As a practical matter for citizens defending their homes, you don’t want the thug kicking in your door at two in the morning wounded. You want him dead, not because you’re a sadistic fiend, but because you don’t want the bad guy telling the cops he was out, minding his own business, collecting for the Mother Teresa Memorial Fund when you shot him for no reason. Also, you don’t want him getting all better in a hospital, probably at taxpayer expense, only to return seeking vengeance against you or your family at a later date, after he serves eight months out of a six-year sentence for Home Invasion.

    By virtue of their tending toward wounding, rather than killing, assault rifles are not always optimal in the role of personal protection for citizens.

    We saw the limitations of the .223 recently in St. Louis, where a determined madman sprayed, according to press accounts, “well over a hundred rounds” from a .223 “assault rifle” into ABB Manufacturing. Out of all those rounds expended, only four dead (including the crazed gunman), and eight wounded. We see this pattern repeated a lot: some lunatic with an AR15 or AK-47 sending massive amounts of lead downrange, with surprisingly low casualty rates. The only glaring exception to this were the infamous “DC Snipers”, who racked up quite a few one-shot kills with a Bushmaster AR-15. But this evil duo gave themselves the luxury of taking their time and carefully targeting the heads and chest cavities of their innocent victims. In a home defense situation, you probably won’t have that advantage.

    By contrast, rifles chambered in caliber .308 are almost perfectly designed for home defense or survival uses by single citizens. They are high-precision weapons effective up to 1000 meters. I have seen persons shot with .223 in the torso and yet be able to walk to the ambulance. The story with .308 is quite different: score a hit to an opponent anywhere in the torso and, owing to the increased power of the round, they won’t be walking to the ambulance … or anywhere else, ever again.

    The big downside of using the .308 as a survival weapon: overpenetration. True, you can shoot that bad guy kicking in your door, through the door, before he makes it inside, and vaporize a good percentage of his body mass. Unfortunately, that 180-grain boat-tail bullet, cooking along at 2800 fps, will just keep on going … down the street and into the neighbor’s house. But the caliber is ideal for either rural dwellers; or even suburban dwellers who’ve taken the time beforehand to plan, if someone tries breaking into their house, what safe backstops (trees, hills, etc) can be used, and from what angles, to avoid endangering neighbors.

    Finally, it should go without saying that recoil on a .308 is quite a bit more strident than from a .223 or 7.62 x 39, but this can be minimized with training and/or equipment. Savage’s Scout rifle is extremely comfortable to shoot by virtue of it’s thick rubber buttpad. My PTR-91 (an HK91 clone) was a different matter: the original stock was just a hollow plastic affair that, after even a twenty-round string, was beating the hell out of my cheekbone. But, a MagPul adjustable stock fixed that problem.

    “Assault” rifles are good to have, and certainly, they have a niche in a survival arsenal. But if I had to choose a single rifle, I’d take even a bolt-action .308 over a .223 or 7.62 x 39.

    #53943

    wildhorse
    Member

    Everybody has an opinion about what makes a firearm a good choice for a survival situation. Keep in mind that a survival situation can include foraging and hunting for food, avoiding detection, evasion, escape, overcoming the elements, and unfortunately, it may include combat.

    Consequently, a good survival firearm has to be capable of doing several things. It has to be lightweight, rugged, and be simple to operate and maintain. It must be accurate for its intended purpose of hunting, self-defense, and combat. It must weather the elements and be easy to maneuver and store. With these criteria factored in, you come to an immediate conclusion. There is no perfect survival weapon. Golly! Don’t ya love it?

    Moving on, I would suggest that a carbine length weapon with a folding stock made of stainless steel is highly desirable, as it meets the criteria of ease of carry, modest weight, weather resistance, ease of storage combined with ease of maneuver. The weapon should also be capable of downing game and be effective against human targets. A good basic load of ammo should be able to be carried implying a cartridge of modest dimensions and power.

    The criteria for survival situations suggests that the weapon will be carried much and shot little. However, it has to fulfill basic combat requirements of maintaining a rate of fire of at least 30 aimed shots a minute, be capable of being reloaded in combat, and capable of placing shots within 3 minutes of angle on a human target at 200 yards.

    What does this leave us with? It suggests that many current weapons are either marginal or not well suited for survival situations. They are either too fragile, too cumbersome, too heavy, or lack stopping power to be your first choice.

    The .22 LR you ask, what about it? My reply is that the Ruger 10/22 in stainless (or similar type firearm) with a folding stock, a good quality .22 scope, and with the Butler Creek Hot Lips 25 round magazine may fit MOST of the above requirements. However, the 22 LR caliber lacks stopping power on big game and humans. Would I eliminate it from consideration because of that? No. And here is why.

    A shot to the brain pan of beast or man at close range will down the most aggressive of the species — hors d’ combat is assured with most head shots that penetrate the brain. This is within the .22 LR round’s capabilities if the shooter does his or her part and uses a double or triple tap.

    That said, there may be a better alternative available. Ruger makes the Mini 14 series in .223 or 7.62 Russian. It is available in stainless. It can be scoped. There are many folding stocks available for it. Both the .223 and the 7.62 Russki will put down big game and human adversaries. The ammo is fairly lightweight. Carbine length Mini 14s are of modest weight and are easy to maneuver. Stainless steel can be taped or painted to mute its visibility. The Mini has several magazine configurations available from 10, 20, to 30 round capacity, thus leveling the playing field in combat situations. Both calibers are accurate enough for hunting and combat. The Mini in a folding stock is easy to carry and transport.

    Enough said. What is it to be if you have these choices and can afford them? The 10/22 or the Mini 14? My answer is that you need both if you have a family or a team of more than two persons. One person can carry the 10/22 while the other/s can carry a Mini 14 or some other weapon.

    If you are a solo operator then the choice is more problematic and you will have to make a best fit decision based on your capabilities, your operating environment and the degree of threat and harms present. That is a tough call to make. I would be inclined to go with the 10/22. The only area where the .22 LR is deficient is in stopping power, but a skilled shot going for the head and brain can overcome this. Moreover, with the basic .22 LR at hand in a good weapon like the Ruger, I am confident that as the situation stabilizes I can always get a more powerful weapon to meet changing circumstances.

    Okay, what if you do not have a 10/22 stainless with a folding stock, nor can you afford one, much less a Mini 14? I no longer own either of these weapons (wish I did), nor am I inclined to buy one or the other. So what do I plan to use?
    In my view any firearm that you own or can afford to buy is your SURVIVAL WEAPON. In my present circumstances, I will be relying on my British .303 Jungle Carbine, thank you very much. I like this weapon and shoot it well. It meets MOST of the above requirements. I have carried one as a pilot, backpacker, hunter, and traveler in remote areas all over the United States. I am entirely confident that in a SHTF fan or survival situation it will do the job.

    Now here comes the kicker, LOL!. . . I do have and carry a Ruger .22 auto pistol to supplement the big gun. And you may want to consider carrying a big bore handgun if your main survival weapon is going to be a .22. On the other hand, if you are like me and relying on a powerful military weapon and cartridge to see you through, then consider supplementing it with a .22 caliber handgun. That really evens the odds in your favor.

    Just use whatever firearm you have wisely and well, and quit worrying that your old 30.30 or .218 Bee will not see you through. The key factor in a survival situation is not necessarily the weapon you have but YOU and your determination to prevail.

    #53944

    wildhorse
    Member

    Everybody has an opinion about what makes a firearm a good choice for a survival situation. Keep in mind that a survival situation can include foraging and hunting for food, avoiding detection, evasion, escape, overcoming the elements, and unfortunately, it may include combat.

    Consequently, a good survival firearm has to be capable of doing several things. It has to be lightweight, rugged, and be simple to operate and maintain. It must be accurate for its intended purpose of hunting, self-defense, and combat. It must weather the elements and be easy to maneuver and store. With these criteria factored in, you come to an immediate conclusion. There is no perfect survival weapon. Golly! Don’t ya love it?

    Moving on, I would suggest that a carbine length weapon with a folding stock made of stainless steel is highly desirable, as it meets the criteria of ease of carry, modest weight, weather resistance, ease of storage combined with ease of maneuver. The weapon should also be capable of downing game and be effective against human targets. A good basic load of ammo should be able to be carried implying a cartridge of modest dimensions and power.

    The criteria for survival situations suggests that the weapon will be carried much and shot little. However, it has to fulfill basic combat requirements of maintaining a rate of fire of at least 30 aimed shots a minute, be capable of being reloaded in combat, and capable of placing shots within 3 minutes of angle on a human target at 200 yards.

    What does this leave us with? It suggests that many current weapons are either marginal or not well suited for survival situations. They are either too fragile, too cumbersome, too heavy, or lack stopping power to be your first choice.

    The .22 LR you ask, what about it? My reply is that the Ruger 10/22 in stainless (or similar type firearm) with a folding stock, a good quality .22 scope, and with the Butler Creek Hot Lips 25 round magazine may fit MOST of the above requirements. However, the 22 LR caliber lacks stopping power on big game and humans. Would I eliminate it from consideration because of that? No. And here is why.

    A shot to the brain pan of beast or man at close range will down the most aggressive of the species — hors d’ combat is assured with most head shots that penetrate the brain. This is within the .22 LR round’s capabilities if the shooter does his or her part and uses a double or triple tap.

    That said, there may be a better alternative available. Ruger makes the Mini 14 series in .223 or 7.62 Russian. It is available in stainless. It can be scoped. There are many folding stocks available for it. Both the .223 and the 7.62 Russki will put down big game and human adversaries. The ammo is fairly lightweight. Carbine length Mini 14s are of modest weight and are easy to maneuver. Stainless steel can be taped or painted to mute its visibility. The Mini has several magazine configurations available from 10, 20, to 30 round capacity, thus leveling the playing field in combat situations. Both calibers are accurate enough for hunting and combat. The Mini in a folding stock is easy to carry and transport.

    Enough said. What is it to be if you have these choices and can afford them? The 10/22 or the Mini 14? My answer is that you need both if you have a family or a team of more than two persons. One person can carry the 10/22 while the other/s can carry a Mini 14 or some other weapon.

    If you are a solo operator then the choice is more problematic and you will have to make a best fit decision based on your capabilities, your operating environment and the degree of threat and harms present. That is a tough call to make. I would be inclined to go with the 10/22. The only area where the .22 LR is deficient is in stopping power, but a skilled shot going for the head and brain can overcome this. Moreover, with the basic .22 LR at hand in a good weapon like the Ruger, I am confident that as the situation stabilizes I can always get a more powerful weapon to meet changing circumstances.

    Okay, what if you do not have a 10/22 stainless with a folding stock, nor can you afford one, much less a Mini 14? I no longer own either of these weapons (wish I did), nor am I inclined to buy one or the other. So what do I plan to use?
    In my view any firearm that you own or can afford to buy is your SURVIVAL WEAPON. In my present circumstances, I will be relying on my British .303 Jungle Carbine, thank you very much. I like this weapon and shoot it well. It meets MOST of the above requirements. I have carried one as a pilot, backpacker, hunter, and traveler in remote areas all over the United States. I am entirely confident that in a SHTF fan or survival situation it will do the job.

    Now here comes the kicker, LOL!. . . I do have and carry a Ruger .22 auto pistol to supplement the big gun. And you may want to consider carrying a big bore handgun if your main survival weapon is going to be a .22. On the other hand, if you are like me and relying on a powerful military weapon and cartridge to see you through, then consider supplementing it with a .22 caliber handgun. That really evens the odds in your favor.

    Just use whatever firearm you have wisely and well, and quit worrying that your old 30.30 or .218 Bee will not see you through. The key factor in a survival situation is not necessarily the weapon you have but YOU and your determination to prevail.

    #53945

    Cragar
    Member

    I just have a question, or two.
    I read the article posted about guns to grab and how the author feels about the ammo and the availability of them. I find no mention of the 30/30. I ask simply because I was given a 30/30 by my father many, many years ago and although I much prefer to shoot my 9mm handgun, since visiting this forum I have decided it is very important for me to remove the scope on the 30/30 and learn to accurately shoot it with the bore sights. Is the 30/30 not a good option for a rifle? Is the ammo going to be hard to locate in an emergency situation? Which brings about question two, probably a completely idiotic question to ask, but I see so many people stockpiling ammo I just have to. Does ammo ever go bad? With my 9mm, I buy ammo 250 at a time, take it to the range and shoot almost all of it up. I average about 200 rounds a month going through that gun and clean it when I get home. Reload the home defense ammo I use in it and store it until the next time I go to the range. So does ammo ever go bad? Is the 30/30 not a very good choice in weapon?

    Thanks.

    #53946

    Maddsci40
    Member

    @cragar wrote:

    I just have a question, or two.
    I read the article posted about guns to grab and how the author feels about the ammo and the availability of them. I find no mention of the 30/30. … Does ammo ever go bad? …Is the 30/30 not a very good choice in weapon?

    Cragar,
    Many recent postings have involved the argument of the 30-30 as being a suitable battle weapon post SHTF. Personally, I do very much believe that it is. I own a winchester 94 and it is both a pleasure to shoot and is quite accurate as well using the iron sights alone. Mine is topped with a scope with see-through rings so that if the scope gets misaligned then one could use the original sights. Currently a box of ammo (reloadable american made) can be had for $12-14, which comes out to be 60-70 cents per round. In contrast, 7.62×39 (non-reloadable) can be had for as low as $200/1000 rds. (20 cents per round). Yet, what the weapons that fire this round have in repeatable firepower they lack in accuracy over the lever-guns. I reload for the 30-30 and find it a joy. Remember, the rimmed cartridge does not require drastic keeping to neck wall length adherance. Oh did I mention, that I own 4 ar platform weapons (3 of which I built myself) 3 ak platform weapons and 3 sks, and so I feel I can put forth a balanced argument for the 30-30 as a viable alternative for at least the majority of survival needs in a Post SHTF situation. My I make one suggestion: you need to stockpile ammo, and I believe 1000 rds (minimum) as to have handy, because currently you are behaving like the grasshoper that acts like there is no tomorrow, while the ant continues to stockpile. As the weather changes the grasshopper dies off and te ant continues on living with what he has saved.
    Good Luck!
    MS

    #53947

    frankd4
    Participant

    This is my Saiga 12 guage Shotgun with ten round magazines since it’s box fed it reloads bunny rabit fast folding stock makes it easy to hide.

    I have won a few three gun matches with it.

    #53948

    Muzhik
    Member

    @frankd4 wrote:

    This is my Saiga 12 guage Shotgun with ten round magazines since it’s box fed it reloads bunny rabit fast folding stock makes it easy to hide.

    I have won a few three gun matches with it.

    How long did it take to bury the bodies of the losers?

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