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Measles Outbreak

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Re: Measles Outbreak

Postby AlabamaPoleCat » Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:02 pm

dmwalsh568 wrote:
Permafrost wrote:
dmwalsh568 wrote:Not sure how to fix this, because it's really hard to fix stupid. I guess nature will have to take its course and kids will die because their parents are uneducated or just dumb.

Some people believe in living a natural span, this is not stupid it is just a personal preference. Lots of people know that vaccines save lives, but they still choose not to vaccinate because of a variety of reasons. To say that someone who does not vaccinate is stupid is in itself a ignorant statement when you do not know the reasons behind their view. Not getting vaccinated is along the same lines as someone having a DNR order in place or not seeking medical care even in the event of a life-threatening condition. Some people believe the world is to crowded and they choose to live only the amount of time nature will let them, this is their choice.


If the vaccines were being given when folks are adults and responsible for themselves, then I'd agree with you (well, I'd still consider them stupid, but everyone has the right to choose their own level of risk.) The problem is that vaccines are given to children and parents are making life and death decisions for their kids. And those that choose the "natural span" route aren't just risking their own kids, they are risking other kids who aren't old enough to get vaccinated yet. That's selfish at best and I'll continue to call it stupid because of the impact it has on kids who can't choose for themselves.

Risking yourself is one thing, but risking others is bad for the community. And no, I'm not going to advocate for mandatory vaccinations, but I'm sure as heck going to call people who risk others selfish, stupid, or both. I feel sorry for the kids impacted by this since they can't choose their parents.

As Forest Gump put it, "Stupid is as stupid does."

DMwalsh, I agree with your sentament reguarding vaccines. BUT, it is the job of parents to make those kinds of decessions for their children. I sure as Hale don't want others making those decessions for my children and grandchildren, that is of course unless you're willing to pick up the tab for'em, PM me for address where the check can be sent monthy. :D I'm not worried been vaccinated as has my family.

From what I can see it looks like the only ones being effected are those not vaccinated. Well they rolled the dice and came up snakeyes, that's life... welcome to the real world folks. Yes I understand there are risks with getting a vaccine, well we who choose to get vaccines roll the dice too.
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Re: Measles Outbreak

Postby ALurker » Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:17 pm

My family and I are also vaccinated but I would like to pose a question on here:

What if something someday gets into the vaccines either through carlessness (yeah, like that never happens), or through terrorism?

Seems like a pretty soft target to me.
Once it's in the "batch" would they figure it out in time, and what if the guy doing the "testing" is the one with an agenda to make people sick or infertile!
Also, If memory serves then not all of our vaccines are even made in this country any more!

Not to mention government testing programs (we know without a doubt they've done it in the past) - what if, in your area they decide to try out a new chemical, toxin, biologic, or a completely different vaccine then what you think your getting ?

If you think that's far fetched - have you read the news lately?
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Re: Measles Outbreak

Postby Permafrost » Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:37 pm

dmwalsh568 wrote:
Permafrost wrote:
dmwalsh568 wrote:Not sure how to fix this, because it's really hard to fix stupid. I guess nature will have to take its course and kids will die because their parents are uneducated or just dumb.

Some people believe in living a natural span, this is not stupid it is just a personal preference. Lots of people know that vaccines save lives, but they still choose not to vaccinate because of a variety of reasons. To say that someone who does not vaccinate is stupid is in itself a ignorant statement when you do not know the reasons behind their view. Not getting vaccinated is along the same lines as someone having a DNR order in place or not seeking medical care even in the event of a life-threatening condition. Some people believe the world is to crowded and they choose to live only the amount of time nature will let them, this is their choice.


If the vaccines were being given when folks are adults and responsible for themselves, then I'd agree with you (well, I'd still consider them stupid, but everyone has the right to choose their own level of risk.) The problem is that vaccines are given to children and parents are making life and death decisions for their kids. And those that choose the "natural span" route aren't just risking their own kids, they are risking other kids who aren't old enough to get vaccinated yet. That's selfish at best and I'll continue to call it stupid because of the impact it has on kids who can't choose for themselves.

Risking yourself is one thing, but risking others is bad for the community. And no, I'm not going to advocate for mandatory vaccinations, but I'm sure as heck going to call people who risk others selfish, stupid, or both. I feel sorry for the kids impacted by this since they can't choose their parents.

As Forest Gump put it, "Stupid is as stupid does."

I'm not sure how not choosing to live a natural life span is stupid. I was vaccinated as a child and I wish I had not been for the simple fact that it contradicts my whole philosophical outlook on life. I am not a stupid individual, I have a life view that you do not share but that does not mean that my IQ is less than you. I might argue that allowing a population to get so large (by removing natural limiting factors) that the planet can barely sustain it is stupid but that would be a classic straw man argument and get us off topic. The reality is that people die, it is a natural part of life. Because of "modern" medicine we now have super bacteria and viruses, everything in life mutates at some point. The point of mutation is to survive, so by vaccinating people all that actually happens is that mutated strains of diseases eventually evolve so that it may survive. If a disease is allowed to run it's course it has no need to mutate, or if the mutation appears it will not spread as quickly as the standard strain. Diseases are present in life as one of the many limiting factors on the human population, they will always be there in one form or another. To think that disease can be removed form society is unrealistic. The only question should be what type of disease do we want in society, the ones we have traditionally had or the new ones that have mutated so drastically that they (or their side effects) can not be cured or managed by any means.
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Re: Measles Outbreak

Postby divers351 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:28 pm

"If a disease is allowed to run it's course it has no need to mutate, or if the mutation appears it will not spread as quickly as the standard strain."

I do not know where you received your virology training, but this line is the most untrue statement. Ebola has no widespread vaccine and yet the virus has mutated. ALL viruses mutate based on environmental factors and genetic interaction with the host. If you increase the genetic available "soup" or change its environment it will mutate. Hell....The Ebola viruses are mutating within bat colonies in a stable environment.

Also if I might add, please do not confuse bacterial resistance with virus mutation.
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Re: Measles Outbreak

Postby AlabamaPoleCat » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:34 pm

divers351 wrote:"If a disease is allowed to run it's course it has no need to mutate, or if the mutation appears it will not spread as quickly as the standard strain."

I do not know where you received your virology training, but this line is the most untrue statement. Ebola has no widespread vaccine and yet the virus has mutated. ALL viruses mutate based on environmental factors and genetic interaction with the host. If you increase the genetic available "soup" or change its environment it will mutate. Hell....The Ebola viruses are mutating within bat colonies in a stable environment.

Also if I might add, please do not confuse bacterial resistance with virus mutation.

Divers, aren't virusi the most basic life form? Basicly DNA and not much else?
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Re: Measles Outbreak

Postby divers351 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:56 pm

Technically viruses are not alive - without a host they die. Bacteria are alive - they need no host to survive. Viruses trick other cells into doing their dirty work (which is why they are so dangerous). Bacteria do their own dirty work :)
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Re: Measles Outbreak

Postby Senah » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:21 pm

As I mentioned above, any infants under 12 months cannot yet be vaccinated, so if you or your family are unvaccinated, you could end up killing them. The same goes for people who are immunocompromised through serious illness.

So, I don't see many families that don't vaccinate spending any money or time on the families whose members die because they were exposed to a disease that should have been wiped out decades ago. If one believes that more people need to be killed off, then that is a different argument, and I can't dissuade you from that. However, I value independent rights so long as they don't affect anyone else's chance at living their life. I do value herd immunity, and I guess I value giving kids their best shot at life. It would be a shame if a kid died of measles before their first birthday due to someone who bought into the hype and not the science, and chose not to vaccinate their kids.

For science-based info, check out: http://www.immunize.org.
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Re: Measles Outbreak

Postby Blondie » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:27 pm

I agree with the sentiment that this is a mini boom for Big Pharma. The MMR vaccine wasn't available until the 1970's. The day it was introduced, all of America didn't get immediately vaccinated. You didn't run to Walgreen's with your co pay and your local health department didn't take your Medicaid. It didn't exist.

Some of us over 40, 45+ have actually had the measles. I've had measles, rubella (which is far more serious), chicken pox and I have one brother who had mumps. They were considered childhood diseases. In my house when one child got it, every child got it.

Schools didn't close for a week, you didn't put on PPE, the neighborhood wasn't quarantined, no principal sent out flyers and CNN didn't broadcast maps.

Generations lived thru it. Perhaps this is the window of opportunity to instill yet more political correctness. Of course it's not immigrants from third world countries.....It's those wacky New Age parents.
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Re: Measles Outbreak

Postby Lynda » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:42 am

I agree with Senah. I'm an oldster, too, fast approaching 61 but ensured my sons were vaccinated, including the oldest who'll be 41. It's got nothing to do with being politically correct or being New Age parents. If they didn't need to be sick then why have them sick? Besides, since the Seventies, there are many more working women(they have to work) and lost time means lost wages. And,yes, I had to work back then. Of course, both had chicken pox in the Eighties.

I don't see anyone forcing people to vaccinate themselves or their kids but if not then stay the heck away from others who simply don't want the exposure. Isn't that fair?
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Re: Measles Outbreak

Postby Senah » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:00 pm

Another interesting fact is that in mumps, for example, in males there is a 30% chance of testicular involvement. This can lead to a secondary infection which results in sterility in men.

So, if I were a parent and I chose not to vaccinate, and then my son could never have children, I'd feel awful I had taken that opportunity away from him.
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Re: Measles Outbreak

Postby Blondie » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:42 pm

Lynda wrote:I agree with Senah. I'm an oldster, too, fast approaching 61 but ensured my sons were vaccinated, including the oldest who'll be 41. It's got nothing to do with being politically correct or being New Age parents. If they didn't need to be sick then why have them sick? Besides, since the Seventies, there are many more working women(they have to work) and lost time means lost wages. And,yes, I had to work back then. Of course, both had chicken pox in the Eighties.

I don't see anyone forcing people to vaccinate themselves or their kids but if not then stay the heck away from others who simply don't want the exposure. Isn't that fair?


Well girl, being of a certain age you probably were never vaccinated. So did you ever have measles, rubella, chicken pox, mumps, etc?

The reason I'm asking is because it seems so many consider them all a death knell right up there with ebola.
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Re: Measles Outbreak

Postby IceFire » Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:22 pm

As a kid, I didn't have the vaccines (not "out" yet back then). Was exposed to ALL of them, (repeatedly) and got NONE of them--the ONLY thing I ever got as a kid was Strep Throat, which I had EVERY year.

Finally had MMR vaccines when I went into the Army. Sweated bullets when the kids brought home chicken pox from school/preschool, but STILL never got them. Now I'm at school with kids all day, exposed to EVERYTHING, and the ONLY thing I've come down with are sinus infections due to allergies.
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Re: Measles Outbreak

Postby DuckNCover » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:27 pm

Lynda wrote:I agree with Senah. I'm an oldster, too, fast approaching 61 but ensured my sons were vaccinated, including the oldest who'll be 41. It's got nothing to do with being politically correct or being New Age parents. If they didn't need to be sick then why have them sick? Besides, since the Seventies, there are many more working women(they have to work) and lost time means lost wages. And,yes, I had to work back then. Of course, both had chicken pox in the Eighties.

I don't see anyone forcing people to vaccinate themselves or their kids but if not then stay the heck away from others who simply don't want the exposure. Isn't that fair?


Exactly, stay the heck away when your contageous....

When I contracted measles, mumps, or any other contageous disease (back in the 1960's); I was quarantined. Not able to go back to school unless cleared by a doctor. I was out for 3 months with one illness, almost had to repeat a grade due to it. The fact is quarantines work and should be instituted if someone comes down with a contageous disease that could cause harm...
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Re: Measles Outbreak

Postby Lynda » Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:18 am

Blondie wrote:
Lynda wrote:I agree with Senah. I'm an oldster, too, fast approaching 61 but ensured my sons were vaccinated, including the oldest who'll be 41. It's got nothing to do with being politically correct or being New Age parents. If they didn't need to be sick then why have them sick? Besides, since the Seventies, there are many more working women(they have to work) and lost time means lost wages. And,yes, I had to work back then. Of course, both had chicken pox in the Eighties.

I don't see anyone forcing people to vaccinate themselves or their kids but if not then stay the heck away from others who simply don't want the exposure. Isn't that fair?


Well girl, being of a certain age you probably were never vaccinated. So did you ever have measles, rubella, chicken pox, mumps, etc?

The reason I'm asking is because it seems so many consider them all a death knell right up there with ebola.



The only thing I was vaccinated for as a child was polio. I, too, received everything else during basic in the Army. As Duck and Cover said, I was quarantined during childhood illnesses and no, it wasn't a death knell. Had the immunizations been available at that time my mother would have had me vaccinated.

No one is forcing you to vaccinate your children or be vaccinated yourself. It's just common sense to stay away from others.
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Re: Measles Outbreak

Postby Senah » Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:40 am

As a provider, I can tell you that almost every parent will bring their sick child into the office when they run a fever or have a rash. Can you guys tell me off the top of your head the different symptoms between a serious Streptococcal infection vs. mumps vs. fifth disease vs. rubella? Well, it's sometimes even hard for us, and when kids are in the waiting room (or adults) with infants or people with auto-immune disorders, they can get them sick.

Additionally, we have much more travel in all cities and states than in the 1940s and 1950s, so the risk of exposure is much higher. Access to medical care is also much higher, leading to the aforementioned problem. I just don't know anyone who is very against vaccines who has worked in the countries where they still have these diseases running rampant and has seen the effects. The people I know that are against them mostly have spent their lives in developed countries where kids have a good opportunity at a healthy start in life. That is now changing because of travel, immigration, and lowering vaccination rates. It's tragic, absolutely tragic.
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