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Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

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Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby Chester Copperpot » Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:18 pm

I've noticed a lot of LEO and military bashing on various threads on APN lately. I encourage all to come to their aid in a rational manner. Lots of people live in their comfy little bubble world out there because a few brave folks will go out there and take out the trash. It's easy for them to forget that they are free only because there are men and women who will stand in the way of tyranny. I appreciate anyone's right to say what they want, especially about their government. But I will not stand idle when they complain unwarranted about good people without educating them to the best of my ability.

I emplore my brothers and sisters of the various services to do the same. I try to tell people this... Until you know what it's like to look your wife and kids in the eye, not knowing if you will return to them, and leave anyway, you have no room to prejudge anyone. God bless all of you. Be safe. Win.
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby dogman19552003 » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:04 pm

well said!! support the troops
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby RedHorse_Ronin » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:07 pm

I can appreciate your sentiments and with my background, I can understand where you come from. However, since the late 70's there has been a growing cancer in the LE communities of this nation. Does it infect every officer? No. Not even the majority...perhaps. However, there is a growing institutional disregard for civil liberties that begins at the top and like all fecal matter, follows the laws of gravity. The number of "bad apples" in the LE communities are increasing at an alarming rate. Why? Because of management led cultures that the "wars" on drugs and "terror" have contrived to deprive citizens of liberty for the theater of "security." It permeated recruiting and training and then field operations. The Good LEO's are simply being buried by the ill trained recruits with pro-government attitudes, political correctness, and management that takes their cues from leadership like Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, Obama, Holder, Napolitano (Janet and the current menace), Clinton, et al. When the SYSTEM is stacked against ethics and the mindset of us vs them is encouraged, then corruption, abuse, and overreach become the new normal. With that being said, the LEO communities have MUCH to be criticized for, imo.

As for the military, I see very little criticism, informed or otherwise, on APN. I served two decades, all over the globe and can attest to the military not being the group of saints that many choose to believe us to be. It is true that most GI's are a cut above most LE and light years ahead of most of the citizens in this nation, well true to my perspective anyway, but that does not remove the facts that the military, especially the command is a politically correct function of the increasingly imperial executive. That is worth criticism and bears intense scrutiny. I have noticed two interesting dynamics emerging in the military. First is the growing number of entitled, under educated, over indoctrinated pro-government recruits and second a silent but significant minority of libertarians of my generation of NCO's and junior officers. Hopefully the two cancel each other out to a large degree. In the defense of the service, I will say that the service is better at policing itself and being transparent, even if the justice is anything but. We learned from My Lai and now when the politicians try to cover things up, we eventually have a hand at outing ourselves, even though justice may not carry the day, like with Abu Ghraib. However, had we not learned from My Lai, then Pat Tillman and other scandals may not have seen the light of day.
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Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good .45acp at your side, kid.

Winston, Julia, or O'Brien? How about none of the above?

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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby Lynda » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:52 pm

Chris(Red), if others posted their concerns about LE and military as clearly and concisely as you just did then this probably wouldn't evolve into a discussion, let alone a debate. You did just acknowledge that the majority of LE are not the jackbooted paratroopers many portray them to be and in a country of around 316 million inhabitants that is telling.

Cop bashing is nothing new and people do it my little town, too, some of it warranted, most of it not. Like any other profession there are both professionals and those who abuse their position for self gain. The two in my town are gone, having sacrificed their careers and pensions. One was a thief and one lied about his education, allowing him to draw a salary he did not deserve(see Quinn Bill). He was a thief, too.

In all my years on this planet there was only one time I was spoken to disrespectfully by a police officer and I've had more than a few encounters; a few of which I was clearly in the wrong.


My feeling is that if we're going to live in such paranoia and fear then we're allowing our emotions to take over. I'm not one of those people.
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby treefarmer » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:53 pm

RedHorse_Ronin wrote:As for the military, I see very little criticism, informed or otherwise, on APN. I served two decades, all over the globe and can attest to the military not being the group of saints that many choose to believe us to be.


The military does not enforce the laws within the country such as police. If GI's handed out speeding tickets and had to deal with your drunk abusive spouse then you would be hated to by members of APN.

:shock: :shock: :shock: Did I get your attention now police haters???

Police 1 Haters 0
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby RedHorse_Ronin » Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:09 pm

treefarmer wrote:
RedHorse_Ronin wrote:As for the military, I see very little criticism, informed or otherwise, on APN. I served two decades, all over the globe and can attest to the military not being the group of saints that many choose to believe us to be.


The military does not enforce the laws within the country such as police. If GI's handed out speeding tickets and had to deal with your drunk abusive spouse then you would be hated to by members of APN.

:shock: :shock: :shock: Did I get your attention now police haters???

Police 1 Haters 0

What is your point? NOBODY is drafted into the police, nor the military. IF you are a disgruntled member of either then it is your own fault and responsibility. There is enough misinformed fear of the military on APN to make any INTELLIGENT person notice, such as the martial law bs. However, your vehemence is noted, yet puzzling.
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves" William Pitt the younger

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good .45acp at your side, kid.

Winston, Julia, or O'Brien? How about none of the above?

It's got electrolytes!
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby dogman19552003 » Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:26 pm

RedHorse_Ronin wrote:I can appreciate your sentiments and with my background, I can understand where you come from. However, since the late 70's there has been a growing cancer in the LE communities of this nation. Does it infect every officer? No. Not even the majority...perhaps. However, there is a growing institutional disregard for civil liberties that begins at the top and like all fecal matter, follows the laws of gravity. The number of "bad apples" in the LE communities are increasing at an alarming rate. Why? Because of management led cultures that the "wars" on drugs and "terror" have contrived to deprive citizens of liberty for the theater of "security." It permeated recruiting and training and then field operations. The Good LEO's are simply being buried by the ill trained recruits with pro-government attitudes, political correctness, and management that takes their cues from leadership like Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, Obama, Holder, Napolitano (Janet and the current menace), Clinton, et al. When the SYSTEM is stacked against ethics and the mindset of us vs them is encouraged, then corruption, abuse, and overreach become the new normal. With that being said, the LEO communities have MUCH to be criticized for, imo.

As for the military, I see very little criticism, informed or otherwise, on APN. I served two decades, all over the globe and can attest to the military not being the group of saints that many choose to believe us to be. It is true that most GI's are a cut above most LE and light years ahead of most of the citizens in this nation, well true to my perspective anyway, but that does not remove the facts that the military, especially the command is a politically correct function of the increasingly imperial executive. That is worth criticism and bears intense scrutiny. I have noticed two interesting dynamics emerging in the military. First is the growing number of entitled, under educated, over indoctrinated pro-government recruits and second a silent but significant minority of libertarians of my generation of NCO's and junior officers. Hopefully the two cancel each other out to a large degree. In the defense of the service, I will say that the service is better at policing itself and being transparent, even if the justice is anything but. We learned from My Lai and now when the politicians try to cover things up, we eventually have a hand at outing ourselves, even though justice may not carry the day, like with Abu Ghraib. However, had we not learned from My Lai, then Pat Tillman and other scandals may not have seen the light of day.


It will be as always. The troopers will look towards the experience of the non-coms for leadership. Not to the higher-ups for their unit cohesion.
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby RedHorse_Ronin » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:00 pm

dogman19552003 wrote:
RedHorse_Ronin wrote:I can appreciate your sentiments and with my background, I can understand where you come from. However, since the late 70's there has been a growing cancer in the LE communities of this nation. Does it infect every officer? No. Not even the majority...perhaps. However, there is a growing institutional disregard for civil liberties that begins at the top and like all fecal matter, follows the laws of gravity. The number of "bad apples" in the LE communities are increasing at an alarming rate. Why? Because of management led cultures that the "wars" on drugs and "terror" have contrived to deprive citizens of liberty for the theater of "security." It permeated recruiting and training and then field operations. The Good LEO's are simply being buried by the ill trained recruits with pro-government attitudes, political correctness, and management that takes their cues from leadership like Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, Obama, Holder, Napolitano (Janet and the current menace), Clinton, et al. When the SYSTEM is stacked against ethics and the mindset of us vs them is encouraged, then corruption, abuse, and overreach become the new normal. With that being said, the LEO communities have MUCH to be criticized for, imo.

As for the military, I see very little criticism, informed or otherwise, on APN. I served two decades, all over the globe and can attest to the military not being the group of saints that many choose to believe us to be. It is true that most GI's are a cut above most LE and light years ahead of most of the citizens in this nation, well true to my perspective anyway, but that does not remove the facts that the military, especially the command is a politically correct function of the increasingly imperial executive. That is worth criticism and bears intense scrutiny. I have noticed two interesting dynamics emerging in the military. First is the growing number of entitled, under educated, over indoctrinated pro-government recruits and second a silent but significant minority of libertarians of my generation of NCO's and junior officers. Hopefully the two cancel each other out to a large degree. In the defense of the service, I will say that the service is better at policing itself and being transparent, even if the justice is anything but. We learned from My Lai and now when the politicians try to cover things up, we eventually have a hand at outing ourselves, even though justice may not carry the day, like with Abu Ghraib. However, had we not learned from My Lai, then Pat Tillman and other scandals may not have seen the light of day.


It will be as always. The troopers will look towards the experience of the non-coms for leadership. Not to the higher-ups for their unit cohesion.

There IS that. I learned the fine art of BS'ing senior enlisted flunkies and officers a long time ago. You can get a lot of mileage out of "Yes sir, right away sir," then dragging your feet because your troops are detailed to other priorities, at sick call, or you just plead confusion as to the scope and time frame of the order. "That was today at 1300, sir? Sir, Since we didn't email and I have to rely upon my memory, I recall you saying that we were to have the troops ready by 1300 TOMORROW. You recall that, right sir? Remember you were flustered by Colonel being on the warpath and we were trying to get plan for the inspection. Remember? So maybe you just got the days mixed up or the colonel simply gave you the wrong information to spread? At any rate, I will light a fire and see if I can't get a couple of troops over there and make a showing, unless you want to beg off for readiness reasons, sir? Just throwing it out there sir. By the way, I seem to recall that the chief was not able to be located yesterday when we talked so we cannot even rely on his recollection of the events." lol
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves" William Pitt the younger

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good .45acp at your side, kid.

Winston, Julia, or O'Brien? How about none of the above?

It's got electrolytes!
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby Gunns » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:24 pm

RedHorse_Ronin wrote:I can appreciate your sentiments and with my background, I can understand where you come from. However, since the late 70's there has been a growing cancer in the LE communities of this nation. Does it infect every officer? No. Not even the majority...perhaps. However, there is a growing institutional disregard for civil liberties that begins at the top and like all fecal matter, follows the laws of gravity. The number of "bad apples" in the LE communities are increasing at an alarming rate. Why? Because of management led cultures that the "wars" on drugs and "terror" have contrived to deprive citizens of liberty for the theater of "security." It permeated recruiting and training and then field operations. The Good LEO's are simply being buried by the ill trained recruits with pro-government attitudes, political correctness, and management that takes their cues from leadership like Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, Obama, Holder, Napolitano (Janet and the current menace), Clinton, et al. When the SYSTEM is stacked against ethics and the mindset of us vs them is encouraged, then corruption, abuse, and overreach become the new normal. With that being said, the LEO communities have MUCH to be criticized for, imo.

As for the military, I see very little criticism, informed or otherwise, on APN. I served two decades, all over the globe and can attest to the military not being the group of saints that many choose to believe us to be. It is true that most GI's are a cut above most LE and light years ahead of most of the citizens in this nation, well true to my perspective anyway, but that does not remove the facts that the military, especially the command is a politically correct function of the increasingly imperial executive. That is worth criticism and bears intense scrutiny. I have noticed two interesting dynamics emerging in the military. First is the growing number of entitled, under educated, over indoctrinated pro-government recruits and second a silent but significant minority of libertarians of my generation of NCO's and junior officers. Hopefully the two cancel each other out to a large degree. In the defense of the service, I will say that the service is better at policing itself and being transparent, even if the justice is anything but. We learned from My Lai and now when the politicians try to cover things up, we eventually have a hand at outing ourselves, even though justice may not carry the day, like with Abu Ghraib. However, had we not learned from My Lai, then Pat Tillman and other scandals may not have seen the light of day.


Well said Red. I am not as eloquent as you but you expressed what I feel very well indeed.
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby donba » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:40 pm

I was both a Marine and a Corrections officer. A lot of LE agencies, were forced to lower standards in the 80s. Mostly to get more minorities on forces. This was not just blacks but also latinos and women. Some were not as well educated as was the norm, some did not meet the physical condition,or heigh requirements that had ben previously required. A lot of whites as well were hired that should not have ben.Things were done to qualified officers that should never have happened. Example; I finished 3rd in my class, I could not go to my first 6 choices because they had to hire a minority. After 2 years I hated it and quit. Because of political correctness , racial equality, and lower standards, some people have ben hired that should never have ben. Those few are giving the rest a bad name. I personally have seen only 2 that did not belong. Both of them were short and had an unprofessional attitude. They were both white. As a hole most LEO's are professional and polite. We have to remember they spend most of their time dealing with the WORST of our society. If YOU spent 90% of your time dealing with scum of society you might not be as polite as you would like. As a hole most LEO's are doing a good job and I will have their back..... :clap: :gunshooting: :clap:
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby ForwardPreppers » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:52 pm

Gunns wrote:
RedHorse_Ronin wrote:I can appreciate your sentiments and with my background, I can understand where you come from. However, since the late 70's there has been a growing cancer in the LE communities of this nation. Does it infect every officer? No. Not even the majority...perhaps. However, there is a growing institutional disregard for civil liberties that begins at the top and like all fecal matter, follows the laws of gravity. The number of "bad apples" in the LE communities are increasing at an alarming rate. Why? Because of management led cultures that the "wars" on drugs and "terror" have contrived to deprive citizens of liberty for the theater of "security." It permeated recruiting and training and then field operations. The Good LEO's are simply being buried by the ill trained recruits with pro-government attitudes, political correctness, and management that takes their cues from leadership like Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, Obama, Holder, Napolitano (Janet and the current menace), Clinton, et al. When the SYSTEM is stacked against ethics and the mindset of us vs them is encouraged, then corruption, abuse, and overreach become the new normal. With that being said, the LEO communities have MUCH to be criticized for, imo.

As for the military, I see very little criticism, informed or otherwise, on APN. I served two decades, all over the globe and can attest to the military not being the group of saints that many choose to believe us to be. It is true that most GI's are a cut above most LE and light years ahead of most of the citizens in this nation, well true to my perspective anyway, but that does not remove the facts that the military, especially the command is a politically correct function of the increasingly imperial executive. That is worth criticism and bears intense scrutiny. I have noticed two interesting dynamics emerging in the military. First is the growing number of entitled, under educated, over indoctrinated pro-government recruits and second a silent but significant minority of libertarians of my generation of NCO's and junior officers. Hopefully the two cancel each other out to a large degree. In the defense of the service, I will say that the service is better at policing itself and being transparent, even if the justice is anything but. We learned from My Lai and now when the politicians try to cover things up, we eventually have a hand at outing ourselves, even though justice may not carry the day, like with Abu Ghraib. However, had we not learned from My Lai, then Pat Tillman and other scandals may not have seen the light of day.


Well said Red. I am not as eloquent as you but you expressed what I feel very well indeed.

Same for me.
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby 3ADScout » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:09 pm

I think something that we are forgeting is that both LEO and Military are accountable to elected officials. If we elect good people then a few bad apples would not be an issue. I also hate to mention this but many LEOs are protected by the FOP. By law the union must represent the bad apples the same why they would other officers. I have many friends who are LEOs and wouldn't want their job. Can they act like the barn yard rooster. Biggest problem is that many LEOs view those in the public as the "enemy" and not as the public they are sworn to protect and serve.

As for the miltary, would some follow unlawful orders sure, will all? No. Look at Eygpt right now. God bless the Egyptian military for trying to be the stabilizing force and not let Egypt fall into civil war like Syria. We can only hope and pray that our military would do the same if ever need be.
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby Drakenstead1 » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:17 pm

A fish rots from the head
We've seen an increasing militarization of Law Enforcement in this country in the last 3 or 4 decades with the line between Military and Police becoming more and more obscured. Folks of an authoritarian bent see this as a good thing while those of us of a more libertarian mind set see it for the potential slide into tyranny that it is. In fact there are those of us who claim that we have actually crossed that line. The whole subject brings to mind a comment by the wife of one of our local sheriff's deputies at a Republican Caucus back in 2008. When I explained that a proposed law would make firearms manufactured in and only sold and used in this State subject ONLY to the laws of the state and not the Federal government she said "O No we do not want more guns in the hands of citizens! We can't support that" When I explained that it would not increase the availability of guns or change who could have them only who (State or Fed) would have jurisdiction she replied "No we don't want anyone but police to have guns Officer safety is the first & last priority!" I think I lost her and half the other Leo's there that night when I pointed out that our Civil Rights were more important than Officer Safety and that I was pretty sure that they told her husband the job could be dangerous when he signed up. Aside from that I was pretty sure that one of the prime duties of a Law Officer was to Defend the rights of citizens not lobby to limit them.
How many young officers would stand down from orders to violate citizen's rights after an "Event" knowing that they would be sanctioned and that their families would be in jeporady if they dis-obeyed? It's the politicians who give the orders. Those Politicians have shown themselves on the whole to be self serving would be tin pot dictators in more ways than we can count. Imagine Michael Bloomberg's orders to the NYPD after a chaotic event. Do you think he would order his force to make sure that honest citizens were armed and recruited to assist? How many of NY's finest would buck the source of power? Expand that nationally and think of what it would be like in your AO with the Local Political Paragons of virtue no longer constrained by the few things that still hold them in check. Then take a realistic look at the erosion of those things that hold back their lust for power that are very real in the here and now.

In short LEOs & Military are human and they will (at least enough of them) follow orders to lock all of us down. If you are not sure of this ask the ghosts of German Citizens of the thirties how they woke up one morning and found themselves in hell in the Land of Goethe & Schiller.
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby oldsoldier » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:27 pm

I don't have an issue at all with our military, as a matter of fact I kinda feel sorry for them under the current political administration! They truly are just following orders for the most part, now admittedly there are a few rotten apples in the barrel so to speak. But very few. Having served myself for 18 years I completely respect our military personel. It's just they "leaders" I don't like. Every chance I get I thank anyone I see in uniform for serving, the same with any I see in "veteran" hats, shaking their hand and welcoming them home. However 75% of our local LEO's is a different story! It seems when they get a badge and a gun they turn into self serving A holes that are as bad as Hitlers Nazi's. Now not all are that way, about 1/2 of our local SO deputies are good guys and about the same for the troopers here. But it's unfortionate but city wise the bad far out weight the good.
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby dogman19552003 » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:35 pm

RedHorse_Ronin wrote:
dogman19552003 wrote:
RedHorse_Ronin wrote:I can appreciate your sentiments and with my background, I can understand where you come from. However, since the late 70's there has been a growing cancer in the LE communities of this nation. Does it infect every officer? No. Not even the majority...perhaps. However, there is a growing institutional disregard for civil liberties that begins at the top and like all fecal matter, follows the laws of gravity. The number of "bad apples" in the LE communities are increasing at an alarming rate. Why? Because of management led cultures that the "wars" on drugs and "terror" have contrived to deprive citizens of liberty for the theater of "security." It permeated recruiting and training and then field operations. The Good LEO's are simply being buried by the ill trained recruits with pro-government attitudes, political correctness, and management that takes their cues from leadership like Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, Obama, Holder, Napolitano (Janet and the current menace), Clinton, et al. When the SYSTEM is stacked against ethics and the mindset of us vs them is encouraged, then corruption, abuse, and overreach become the new normal. With that being said, the LEO communities have MUCH to be criticized for, imo.

As for the military, I see very little criticism, informed or otherwise, on APN. I served two decades, all over the globe and can attest to the military not being the group of saints that many choose to believe us to be. It is true that most GI's are a cut above most LE and light years ahead of most of the citizens in this nation, well true to my perspective anyway, but that does not remove the facts that the military, especially the command is a politically correct function of the increasingly imperial executive. That is worth criticism and bears intense scrutiny. I have noticed two interesting dynamics emerging in the military. First is the growing number of entitled, under educated, over indoctrinated pro-government recruits and second a silent but significant minority of libertarians of my generation of NCO's and junior officers. Hopefully the two cancel each other out to a large degree. In the defense of the service, I will say that the service is better at policing itself and being transparent, even if the justice is anything but. We learned from My Lai and now when the politicians try to cover things up, we eventually have a hand at outing ourselves, even though justice may not carry the day, like with Abu Ghraib. However, had we not learned from My Lai, then Pat Tillman and other scandals may not have seen the light of day.


oh for those days! LOL

It will be as always. The troopers will look towards the experience of the non-coms for leadership. Not to the higher-ups for their unit cohesion.

There IS that. I learned the fine art of BS'ing senior enlisted flunkies and officers a long time ago. You can get a lot of mileage out of "Yes sir, right away sir," then dragging your feet because your troops are detailed to other priorities, at sick call, or you just plead confusion as to the scope and time frame of the order. "That was today at 1300, sir? Sir, Since we didn't email and I have to rely upon my memory, I recall you saying that we were to have the troops ready by 1300 TOMORROW. You recall that, right sir? Remember you were flustered by Colonel being on the warpath and we were trying to get plan for the inspection. Remember? So maybe you just got the days mixed up or the colonel simply gave you the wrong information to spread? At any rate, I will light a fire and see if I can't get a couple of troops over there and make a showing, unless you want to beg off for readiness reasons, sir? Just throwing it out there sir. By the way, I seem to recall that the chief was not able to be located yesterday when we talked so we cannot even rely on his recollection of the events." lol
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