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Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby Chester Copperpot » Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:47 am

oldsoldier wrote:I don't have an issue at all with our military, as a matter of fact I kinda feel sorry for them under the current political administration! They truly are just following orders for the most part, now admittedly there are a few rotten apples in the barrel so to speak. But very few. Having served myself for 18 years I completely respect our military personel. It's just they "leaders" I don't like. Every chance I get I thank anyone I see in uniform for serving, the same with any I see in "veteran" hats, shaking their hand and welcoming them home. However 75% of our local LEO's is a different story! It seems when they get a badge and a gun they turn into self serving A holes that are as bad as Hitlers Nazi's. Now not all are that way, about 1/2 of our local SO deputies are good guys and about the same for the troopers here. But it's unfortionate but city wise the bad far out weight the good.



Wow. Sounds like someone has been arrested before. Bets anyone?

The adage goes that the military trains a lot and fights little while police fight a lot and train little. Leo's are in the face of society everyday so they get put on trial by them more. I know hard core libertarians think there is some great conspiracy to threaten their rights and freedom. There is not. Law and order contracts and expands with societal changes. Think about it short term even... 1980's and war on drugs was brought about by a consensus of society calling for change due to an over abundance of toleration for too much drug-involved crime. Then society relaxed a bit when the 90's arrived. Liberals got an upper hand and argued civil liberties and rights were being violated with the crack down. So laws and enforcement relaxed a bit. 1990's gave way to terrorist attacks of 2001. Societal laws again contracted, this time for the war on terror. It dictated the need to crack down. Again rights and liberties were given up for safety (and still are). Now we are beginning to let loose again and everybody hates those who are still enforcing. I still love all the jaded folks out there who think cops are out to get innocent people. Almost all cops don't want to mess up anyone or their rights and freedoms. This almost always ends just as bad or worse for them. I know some people still won't recognize any of this and will continue to bash cops since they just need a villain or won't accept the concept personal responsibility. Lord knows the concept of personal responsibility goes hand in hand with self reliance.
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby Chester Copperpot » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:03 am

In short LEOs & Military are human and they will (at least enough of them) follow orders to lock all of us down. If you are not sure of this ask the ghosts of German Citizens of the thirties how they woke up one morning and found themselves in hell in the Land of Goethe & Schiller.[/quote]


Germany didn't have as many people living off the government to feed and house as we do now. They also didn't have as many well trained marksman who were armed with a purpose of self preservation. IF the shtf you won't have to worry about the government locking you down by force. They will try to control the government dependent population with their food and housing as they do now. As soon as that's not in the picture the cops and military will be too busy keeping a leash on them to worry about you. The have-nots are the ones to worry about cause they'll be coming for the haves as soon as the shtf and their food begins to run out. ;)
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby wolf36 » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:05 am

No need to bash I just call em how i see em. Veterans, what can you say, with the rate of PTSD you are bound to have issues when you return home. Im sure most would agree more services should be available to vets. All the vets I know are cool as hell, and you have to appreciate the sacrifice.

LEO i have had 1 good experience and 4 bad, might have something to do with being a bald headed young mexican, no tattoos but they still assume im in a gang :shock:
1)Got roughed up by a cop after riding my bike down the street, was detained, searched, ran my record, then released me with no explanation as to what I did to get stopped.
2)I called the cops after my ex scratched my face up, no marks on her but i was the one put in cuffs.
3)Was broke down and a cop stops to "help", ends up searching my car cause i look suspicious.
4)Stopped at a border crossing, K9 sniffs my car 5 seperate times, and i get grilled for about 30 min.
5)Got stopped by a Detective, had an open container :nervous: checked my ID saw the container and let me go cause he was looking for some one else. :clap:

I call it how i see it, the majority of LEO I have interacted with myself are douche bags, what else can I say???
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby Lynda » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:17 am

Chester Copperpot wrote:In short LEOs & Military are human and they will (at least enough of them) follow orders to lock all of us down. If you are not sure of this ask the ghosts of German Citizens of the thirties how they woke up one morning and found themselves in hell in the Land of Goethe & Schiller.



Germany didn't have as many people living off the government to feed and house as we do now. They also didn't have as many well trained marksman who were armed with a purpose of self preservation. IF the shtf you won't have to worry about the government locking you down by force. They will try to control the government dependent population with their food and housing as they do now. As soon as that's not in the picture the cops and military will be too busy keeping a leash on them to worry about you. The have-nots are the ones to worry about cause they'll be coming for the haves as soon as the shtf and their food begins to run out. ;)[/quote]


I'd have to agree with you on this. I'd have more to fear from the average unprepared town resident than I would from town LE.
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby ForwardPreppers » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:45 am

Lynda wrote:
I'd have to agree with you on this. I'd have more to fear from the average unprepared town resident than I would from town LE.

Could not agree anymore.

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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby RedHorse_Ronin » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:38 am

Chester Copperpot wrote:
oldsoldier wrote:I don't have an issue at all with our military, as a matter of fact I kinda feel sorry for them under the current political administration! They truly are just following orders for the most part, now admittedly there are a few rotten apples in the barrel so to speak. But very few. Having served myself for 18 years I completely respect our military personel. It's just they "leaders" I don't like. Every chance I get I thank anyone I see in uniform for serving, the same with any I see in "veteran" hats, shaking their hand and welcoming them home. However 75% of our local LEO's is a different story! It seems when they get a badge and a gun they turn into self serving A holes that are as bad as Hitlers Nazi's. Now not all are that way, about 1/2 of our local SO deputies are good guys and about the same for the troopers here. But it's unfortionate but city wise the bad far out weight the good.



Wow. Sounds like someone has been arrested before. Bets anyone?

The adage goes that the military trains a lot and fights little while police fight a lot and train little. Leo's are in the face of society everyday so they get put on trial by them more. I know hard core libertarians think there is some great conspiracy to threaten their rights and freedom. There is not. Law and order contracts and expands with societal changes. Think about it short term even... 1980's and war on drugs was brought about by a consensus of society calling for change due to an over abundance of toleration for too much drug-involved crime. Then society relaxed a bit when the 90's arrived. Liberals got an upper hand and argued civil liberties and rights were being violated with the crack down. So laws and enforcement relaxed a bit. 1990's gave way to terrorist attacks of 2001. Societal laws again contracted, this time for the war on terror. It dictated the need to crack down. Again rights and liberties were given up for safety (and still are). Now we are beginning to let loose again and everybody hates those who are still enforcing. I still love all the jaded folks out there who think cops are out to get innocent people. Almost all cops don't want to mess up anyone or their rights and freedoms. This almost always ends just as bad or worse for them. I know some people still won't recognize any of this and will continue to bash cops since they just need a villain or won't accept the concept personal responsibility. Lord knows the concept of personal responsibility goes hand in hand with self reliance.

That is awfully presumptuous of you and The rest is overly simplified. You castigate people for being jaded but the majority of LE I know could give lessons on jaded cynicism. I understand where their cynicism comes from but I am not going to overly ennoble them or their CHOSEN profession . You simply have little grasp of the facts if you believe that at ANY TIME in the last several decades, with the possible exception of the late 80's, there was ever any need for an LE "crack down." There is a point in which people that are pro-statism need to just realize and come clean about. You have every right to be pro-statist but be honest enough to admit that at some point (long reached in this nation) government and laws reach the peak of efficacy and then just become onerous and seek to aggrandize more power to those who wield it. When even Officer Joe Friendly is professionally enforcing laws like RICO, seat belt, cell phone, and the plethora of other questionable laws that are overreaching, intrusive, and abusive, then he is a part of a bigger problem, his personal motivations notwithstanding.
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby RoninAmok » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:26 am

[quote="Chester Copperpot"


Wow. Sounds like someone has been arrested before. Bets anyone?

The adage goes that the military trains a lot and fights little while police fight a lot and train little. Leo's are in the face of society everyday so they get put on trial by them more. I know hard core libertarians think there is some great conspiracy to threaten their rights and freedom. There is not. Law and order contracts and expands with societal changes. Think about it short term even... 1980's and war on drugs was brought about by a consensus of society calling for change due to an over abundance of toleration for too much drug-involved crime. Then society relaxed a bit when the 90's arrived. Liberals got an upper hand and argued civil liberties and rights were being violated with the crack down. So laws and enforcement relaxed a bit. 1990's gave way to terrorist attacks of 2001. Societal laws again contracted, this time for the war on terror. It dictated the need to crack down. Again rights and liberties were given up for safety (and still are). Now we are beginning to let loose again and everybody hates those who are still enforcing. I still love all the jaded folks out there who think cops are out to get innocent people. Almost all cops don't want to mess up anyone or their rights and freedoms. This almost always ends just as bad or worse for them. I know some people still won't recognize any of this and will continue to bash cops since they just need a villain or won't accept the concept personal responsibility. Lord knows the concept of personal responsibility goes hand in hand with self reliance.[/quote]


Thanks for providing a living example of the " us versus them" paradigm , and I might add fostering it further in an environment where you have no business doing so.

Quit trying to muzzle folks around here through the utilisation of coercive technique , your badge carries no weight in these environs.

Maybe you oughta go out and say something to *REAL* " cop bashers" instead of running all badge heavy with your authoritarian attitude here. The "blue line crap" doesn't and won't wash here. You aren't " special" just 'cause you want play badge heavy , ya put on your pants just the same way everyone else here does.

And don't bother coming back at *me* with your crap , I saw enough clowns like you when I was still on the job , didn't like 'em then because they made the job harder , and I don't like 'em now.
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby Lynda » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:33 am

Wow. Everyone here has a right to express an opinion, be they LE, military or not. I don't see anyone throwing their weight around. Simply presenting another side of an argument is healthy and constructive.
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby RoninAmok » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:34 am

RedHorse_Ronin wrote:Wow. Sounds like someone has been arrested before. Bets anyone?

Societal laws again contracted, this time for the war on terror. It dictated the need to crack down. Again rights and liberties were given up for safety (and still are). Now we are beginning to let loose again and everybody hates those who are still enforcing. I still love all the jaded folks out there who think cops are out to get innocent people. Almost all cops don't want to mess up anyone or their rights and freedoms. This almost always ends just as bad or worse for them. I know some people still won't recognize any of this and will continue to bash cops since they just need a villain or won't accept the concept personal responsibility. Lord knows the concept of personal responsibility goes hand in hand with self reliance.



That is awfully presumptuous of you and The rest is overly simplified. You castigate people for being jaded but the majority of LE I know could give lessons on jaded cynicism. I understand where their cynicism comes from but I am not going to overly ennoble them or their CHOSEN profession . You simply have little grasp of the facts if you believe that at ANY TIME in the last several decades, with the possible exception of the late 80's, there was ever any need for an LE "crack down." There is a point in which people that are pro-statism need to just realize and come clean about. You have every right to be pro-statist but be honest enough to admit that at some point (long reached in this nation) government and laws reach the peak of efficacy and then just become onerous and seek to aggrandize more power to those who wield it. When even Officer Joe Friendly is professionally enforcing laws like RICO, seat belt, cell phone, and the plethora of other questionable laws that are overreaching, intrusive, and abusive, then he is a part of a bigger problem, his personal motivations notwithstanding.[/quote]



Red , if his starements you quote above are not the mark of a Statist mentality sucking on the govt teat for a paycheck I don't know what is , he WANTS it to be " Us versus THEM" , he WANTS subservience from the general public to his self perceived " specialness" and his equally self perceived " authoritae" , he WANTS the public to BOW to him in abject subjugation.

And when the SHTF the fan for real he'll be a GOBLIN.

Individuals such as " Copperpot" are highly symptomatic of everything that has gone wrong with law enforcement in the last few decades.

I state this from the *inside* , and within the context of being on the job in a city that would make " Copperpot" crap his pants in fear on a daily basis.
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby RoninAmok » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:46 am

Lynda wrote:Wow. Everyone here has a right to express an opinion, be they LE, military or not. I don't see anyone throwing their weight around. Simply presenting another side of an argument is healthy and constructive.



What I see Lynda is not someone stating an opinion , what I see is Copperpot attempting to muzzle free and open discusssion that addresses the truth and the pandemic problems affecting our law enforcement agencies through the auspices of increasing paramilitarisation of law enforcement agencies across the land.

There is very , very little in the way of TRUE " copbashing" in this forum , he merely wants the *actual* problems swept back under the rug and wishes to accomplish that with badge heavy behavior and a " you'd better not dare to say anything that Copperpot deems negative" attitude. He is *exactly* the sort of individual who gets *good* officers called " Pig" when they have to endure the fallout from behaviors such as his.

If the pandemic problems are ever to be fixed then there first has to be acknowledgement from the rank and file officer that they DO exist.

The bleating , sheeplike " all Cops good , all civilians suspects" mantra and the associated paradigm as demonstrated within this thread need to end , and his gambit of " you don't agreed with me so you must have been arrested" is an old and tired demonstration is a living example of the attitude that is causing a goodly portion of the problems , an example of the badge heavy us versus them paradigm I cited.
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby ForwardPreppers » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:49 am

That did not take long.
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby Lynda » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:51 am

RoninAmok wrote:
Lynda wrote:Wow. Everyone here has a right to express an opinion, be they LE, military or not. I don't see anyone throwing their weight around. Simply presenting another side of an argument is healthy and constructive.



What I see Lynda is not someone stating an opinion , what I see is Copperpot attempting to muzzle free and open discusssion that addresses the truth and the pandemic problems affectging our law enforcement agencies through the auspices of increasing paramilitarisation of law enforcement agencies across the land.

There is very , very little in the way of TRUE " copbashing" in this forum , he merely wants the *actual* problems swept back under the rug and wishes to accomplish that with badge heavy behavior and a " you'd better not dare to say anything that Copperpot deems negative" attitude. He is *exactly* the sort of individual who gets *good* officers called " Pig" when they have to endure the fallout from behaviors such as his.

If the pandemic problems are ever to be fixed then there first has to be acknowledgement from the rank and file officer that they DO exist.

The bleating , sheeplike " all Cops good , all civilians suspects" mantra and the associated paradigm as demonstrated within this thread need to end , and his gambit of " you don't agreed with me so you must have been arrested" is an old and tired demonstration is a living example of the attitude that is causing a goodly portion of the problems , an example of the badge heavy us versus them paradigm I cited.


I disagree. I think he was attempting to present the other side. He's free to do that here. I tend to agree with him and nobody's trying to muzzle anyone.
Speaking of bleating, God know I've read more than my fair share of both cop and military bashing here, although the majority is definitely LE bashing. It's a common phenomenon though and not restricted to this particular forum.

I try not to get involved with the "us vs. them" mentality. Seems to me we have more than enough of this way of thinking in this country.
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby RoninAmok » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:58 am

Lynda wrote:I disagree. I think he was attempting to present the other side. He's free to do that here. I tend to agree with him and nobody's trying to muzzle anyone.
Speaking of bleating, God know I've read more than my fair share of both cop and military bashing here, although the majority is definitely LE bashing. It's a common phenomenon though and not restricted to this particular forum.

I try not to get involved with the "us vs. them" mentality. Seems to me we have more than enough of this way of thinking in this country.



I disagree with you , witness his separation of folks into to " haves" and " have nots" , which of course fails to cite that there are many , many criminals within the segment known as " haves" and many , many law abiding citizens within the segment known as the " have nots"........

Those who control the dope trade in Oakland are decidely among the " haves" , as a minor example. This is most assuredly not a black and white issue that can be broken down in such a simplistic manner.

The worst criminals in this country , those who rob the public in the most consistent manner and to the largest degree are among the " haves".

And he doesn't even want to " go there" with *me* on the subject of the " drug war" , I fought that war and in Oakland , I *know* where the REAL money goes in that respect since that was the division I was *in*.

Busting the kid on the corner smoking a joint does NOTHING , popping the guys bring in 40 keys of blow at a time DOES , and guess what , they're among the HAVES.
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby Chester Copperpot » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:03 am

That is awfully presumptuous of you and The rest is overly simplified. You castigate people for being jaded but the majority of LE I know could give lessons on jaded cynicism. I understand where their cynicism comes from but I am not going to overly ennoble them or their CHOSEN profession . You simply have little grasp of the facts if you believe that at ANY TIME in the last several decades, with the possible exception of the late 80's, there was ever any need for an LE "crack down." There is a point in which people that are pro-statism need to just realize and come clean about. You have every right to be pro-statist but be honest enough to admit that at some point (long reached in this nation) government and laws reach the peak of efficacy and then just become onerous and seek to aggrandize more power to those who wield it. When even Officer Joe Friendly is professionally enforcing laws like RICO, seat belt, cell phone, and the plethora of other questionable laws that are overreaching, intrusive, and abusive, then he is a part of a bigger problem, his personal motivations notwithstanding.[/quote]


I'm sorry sir but the lack of grasp on the facts here is clearly yours. It is well documented fact in numerous studies of history and government that we as a nation contract and expand law according to societal demands. Another smaller example is the CT shootings and demands for tougher gun laws. The major example being 9/11 and patriot act, war on terror, TSA taking over airport security, on-and-on... I'm not expressing pro statist views as much as I am stating generalized societal facts which represent a reflection of general government reactions to the people's needs and fears resulting from societal changes beyond the control of them alone. It's what government is supposed to do.

I'm sorry if the concepts of how government works with society and law and order are too simple for you. It's not that complex of a concept. The people say what they want based on what happens to them. The officials react by passing laws and distributing goods and services to the populous based on needs. Then the people who don't like how their needs didn't get addressed first complain to everyone about it. Government and society are both basic concepts on the surface as they can be generalized and summarized. I don't think I have wounded anyone on an online forum by being brief or "oversimplifying" the issue. If you say that then surely you recognize where you have done the same with you comments of police cynasism and every officer's personal motivations.

I don't disagree that most people's interactions with police are negative. That's because we have a lot of hard to enforce rules which were voted in by the representatives of people. No one can follow all the rules all the time, even cops. But, nobody likes to get caught, called out, or penalized either. It's easy to blame cops for your inconvenience to being called out in your own society. I don't fault people for that, but own it. Cops are just as neccisary in a society as rules themselves. Enforcement is subjective and that angers some. Try a day in this country without cops and see what happens. Most don't belong to a gang large enough or live in a hole deep enough to survive a lawless day in this country. It is also clear that police are victim of societal cynicism from people generalizing the misapplication of the rules to the few.

As far as this being a CHOSEN profession...you CHOOSE to live here under the law so I will not overly ennoble you in your chosen life and the societal environment in which you choose to dwell. I CHOOSE to be a patriot and serve my community. I don't want your sympathy for that. I don't care what you think of me. I just think its funny how people have lost the concept of law and order in their own society when it's convenient to them and call peoplelike me first when others step out of line and become intrusive to them. Don't name me the villian. If you don't like the rules you are supposed to live by go get involved in politics or move to Cuba. Fact is laziness is giving way to cynasism of police who are here to serve you. Again, personal responsibility is synonymous with self reliance. I still love you despite your misguided anger. :shakeyes:
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Re: Too Much LEO and Military Bashin'

Postby Chester Copperpot » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:08 am

RoninAmok wrote:
Lynda wrote:I disagree. I think he was attempting to present the other side. He's free to do that here. I tend to agree with him and nobody's trying to muzzle anyone.
Speaking of bleating, God know I've read more than my fair share of both cop and military bashing here, although the majority is definitely LE bashing. It's a common phenomenon though and not restricted to this particular forum.

I try not to get involved with the "us vs. them" mentality. Seems to me we have more than enough of this way of thinking in this country.



I disagree with you , witness his separation of folks into to " haves" and " have nots" , which of course fails to cite that there are many , many criminals within the segment known as " haves" and many , many law abiding citizens within the segment known as the " have nots"........

Those who control the dope trade in Oakland are decidely among the " haves" , as a minor example. This is most assuredly not a black and white issue that can be broken down in such a simplistic manner.

The worst criminals in this country , those who rob the public in the most consistent manner and to the largest degree are among the " haves".

And he doesn't even want to " go there" with *me* on the subject of the " drug war" , I fought that war and in Oakland , I *know* where the REAL money goes in that respect since that was the division I was *in*.

Busting the kid on the corner smoking a joint does NOTHING , popping the guys bring in 40 leys of blow at a time DOES , and guess what , they're among the HAVES.



You have clearly missed the point. Go back and read what I said again after you take deep breath and count to ten.
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