• Advertisement

Join Your States Prepper Network. Click Here

Expedient shelters (for nuke or RDD incident)

Long Term/Short Term Survival Shelters. Constructions tips and ideas.

Moderators: Whisper, medic72

Re: Expedient shelters (for nuke or RDD incident)

Postby Bobjr59 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:39 pm

:help: If I where to use a couple of 40' shipping containers and place them underground what do you suggest I use to insure it's integrity :?
Bobjr59
Georgia Preppers Network
Georgia Preppers Network
 
Posts: 11
Images: 0
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:56 pm
Location: Covington GA.
Karma: 0

Re: Expedient shelters (for nuke or RDD incident)

Postby Jericho Montana » Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:05 pm

Bobjr

Using a CONEX starts off as one of the cheaper ways, depending on where you live a used one can be delivered to your site for around $3,000. However, be aware of two things:

First, they appear strong, but are designed to only support weight on their four corners, and center posts on the 40s. Anything, like dirt, pressing in on the sides and top will crush them pretty quick. They just can’t take the loading.

Second, most, especially those manufactured in the far east, have a wooden floor that has been pressure treated with arsenic. Not a problem for shipping non-living things and it does keep the bugs out, however, once you seal them up and go inside for extended periods the inhalation of high arsenic concentrations is not something you would intentionally want to do.

OK, all that said, a basic web search will turn up a good number of ideas/procedures on how to use the CONEX. However, I think the best description, complete with instructions is contained in Holly Deyo’s fantastic book “Dare to Prepare” pages 419-425 “Burying Shipping Containers” in chapter 42 “Shelter During Nuclear Emergencies.”

Specific to your question, Holly lists the following for burying a CONEX: “Soil weighs about 100 pounds per cubic foot, or 2,700 pounds per cubic yard, so , depending upon how deeply the container is buried, consider reinforcing your container’s roof with either a course of used railroad ties or a combination of both railroad ties and 6 inches of rebar reinforced concrete.. Without reinforcement, the container can’t be buried deeper than about one or two feet. Stick with a minimum of a course of #5 grade used railroad ties….” Page 420

Then I ran the cost estimates for hundreds of railroad timbers, most except for highway crossing timbers are 8 foot long while a CONEX is ten feet wide, so run the math on a CONEX 10x40 foot to include over lap on the roof. Then take this count times 3.5 to accommodate both sides and ends. Then the cost for the 6 inches of rebar reinforced concrete…… Not to mention all the other shelter associated stuff we’ve discussed in this forum.

Sad to say, building any of the large shelters or purchasing same outright, is a rich man’s sport.



If one is bound to start from scratch, my personal research indicates it would be much cheaper to enclose and bury the appropriate sized metal culvert pipe, the base component of must uber-expensive factory shelters, than attempt to crib out around a CONEX and bury it .

But that’s why I said in an earlier post in this forum to check out the FormWorks site. Their finished construction, from big to little, was around $33/sq foot last Fall. Something I could not match with any other type construction, even doing most of the work myself.

Besides, since FormWorks is considered a 90% green construction that matches most building codes, you get a whole bunch of refunds, tax incentives, rebates, and outright grants. If I could build now, which I can’t, there would be near 40-60% monetary return over a ten year period on initial investment.
No, I have no stake or vested interest in FormWorks. Just really like what I see.

Hope this helped.

JM
Jericho Montana
 
Posts: 850
Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 10:52 pm
Karma: 29

Re: Expedient shelters (for nuke or RDD incident)

Postby Muzhik » Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:35 pm

Bobjr59 wrote::help: If I where to use a couple of 40' shipping containers and place them underground what do you suggest I use to insure it's integrity :?


Can't remember if this has been covered before, possibly in another thread, and too lazy to look it up. I suggest you look on YouTube for videos from people who have done that. One thing you have to remember is that the shipping containers are designed to bear loads at the corners and edges, not at the side, bottom, or top. One set of plans I looked at called for railroad ties, set staggered along all the sides that would be holding back dirt. Another called for a wall of cinder blocks, while a third called for straw bales. On YouTube there's a video from a guy showing just how he set up his. He built his with about 2 feet of separation between the wall of the container and the dirt wall. (Can't remember how he held up the dirt wall.) One reason he did this was to create the proper "cave" environment for his wine making/collection. Almost every plan I've seen calls for a reinforced concrete cap over the top of the container, about 2 inches thick.

Another thing to plan for: have a bed of at least 6 inches of gravel, complete with a sump pump to keep the container dry.

Found the YouTube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3EAJex1RVo
Everyone throws stones at the prophet ....
But when the crisis appears everyone says "Why did you not warn us?"
User avatar
Muzhik
Iowa Preppers Network
Iowa Preppers Network
 
Posts: 698
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:30 pm
Location: Iowa
Karma: 6

Re: Expedient shelters (for nuke or RDD incident)

Postby TheLight » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:26 am

In another thread I replied that shipping containers aren't the way to build an underground shelter. I'm repeating myself here. For the cost and risk, it's just not worth it. Remember you'll still need foundation, excavation, lifting, rust proofing, and reinforcing with a shipping container. When you run the numbers, a concrete block shelter, culvert (concrete or steel), or other shelter is going to last longer and be about the same price.
"Where did I leave that clue-by-four?" -Me
"TheLight is a pot-kicking man-ape gone wrong. But we still love him and his ability to carry entire trees at once." -Rush2112
"All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." ~Winston Churchill

Image
Image http://www.theendofthetunnel.org/
User avatar
TheLight
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 1594
Images: 0
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:51 pm
Location: Hatfield, PA
Karma: 47

Re: Expedient shelters (for nuke or RDD incident)

Postby xray » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:45 am

My prepping room is in my basement. Above my prepping room is the kitchen floor. It has 1/2 inch cement board, 1/8 inch morter, and 1/2 inch ceramic tile. If, and when I am ready to add to that layer of protection, I will tile the cieling and reinforce the tiled basement cieling with 3/4 inch plywood so no tile will fall on our heads. This seems to be a realitively inexpensive way to shield us from some of the threat.
xray
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:56 am
Karma: 6

Re: Expedient shelters (for nuke or RDD incident)

Postby itsadisaster » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:42 pm

sounds cool xray! I'd love to have a basement .. never had one in my life but sure hope our new place (once we relocate) has one.
Be Aware... Be Prepared... and Have a Plan! Download a free 58-pg ebook portion of IT'S A DISASTER! ...and what are YOU gonna do about it? with tips about hurricanes, floods, evacuations, wildfires, kits + more
User avatar
itsadisaster
Arizona State Moderator
Arizona State Moderator
 
Posts: 3764
Images: 0
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:46 pm
Location: USA

Re: Expedient shelters (for nuke or RDD incident)

Postby Jericho Montana » Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:59 pm

xray wrote:My prepping room is in my basement. Above my prepping room is the kitchen floor. It has 1/2 inch cement board, 1/8 inch morter, and 1/2 inch ceramic tile. If, and when I am ready to add to that layer of protection, I will tile the cieling and reinforce the tiled basement cieling with 3/4 inch plywood so no tile will fall on our heads. This seems to be a realitively inexpensive way to shield us from some of the threat.


xray

Great job!

Have you had time to consider a heat sink on your air intake, should the house overhead catch fire?

The best layman's description and diagrams I've found so for for this effort is:

Shelters in Soviet War Survival Strategy
Leon Goure
Monograms in International Affairs and Advanced International Studies Institute.
1978
Library of Congress number 78-576-52
Jericho Montana
 
Posts: 850
Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 10:52 pm
Karma: 29

Re: Expedient shelters (for nuke or RDD incident)

Postby utopiafields » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:25 pm

Instead of doing all that yourself and spending that much money on food and water, air filters etc check out this site http://www.bombshelter2012.com/
utopiafields
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:09 pm
Karma: 0

Re: Expedient shelters (for nuke or RDD incident)

Postby iRman » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:59 am

I enjoyed your post Mrs. 'Itsasadisaster', I answer to anything. I am no expert when it comes to protecting oneself from Nuclear attack, but I do have a back ground in the field (US Army PsyOps MOS). However, first before I comment on protecting ourselves please allow me to share something? Long ago, (I am 50ish) my dad (now deceased) told me when I was more testosterone enabled (I was 19) that he did not want to be a survivalist after a world nuclear war. I was appalled and just a tiny tiny bit ashamed of my hero. He was a warrior, golden gloves and all, a fighter and I admired that about him. However, now I see the wisdom of why he said that. The world would be so awful and depressing that it may not be worth living in! So I sit on that fence and feel the same way dad did, now that I am as old as he was when he quipped it.

Still I am giving a nod to surviving the worst. Getting back on topic I would like to add what I hope is a helpful hint, I am using my 'hint' in the construction of my own fallout shelter at my BOL(?). Respectfully not many know the true force of a small-moderate nuclear blast of even a couple of megatons. Even 50 miles away the blast pressure alone is tremendous. So what I did was to use a topographical that can be found on Google to find a piece of land surrounded by rises in elevation, otherwise known as hills ha ha. I placed my shelter area in the protection of these hills so the blast will be deflected a bit. Of course the shelter itself should be designed as per federal or other expert guidelines for strength etc. In addition to the blast deflection, I am picking all the coil springs that I can get for free or on the cheap to build as a shock device on the bottom of the foundation and sides to allow for over 12" of movement. I still haven't figured out what to use for a damping system, shocks maybe? But detailed design aspects of the shelter is material for another thread, eh?

God bless everyone I pray that my shelter never gets tested!
“The authentic self is the soul made visible”
Sarah Ban Breathnach
User avatar
iRman
 
Posts: 8
Images: 15
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:58 am
Location: Far East TN
Karma: 0

Re: Expedient shelters (for nuke or RDD incident)

Postby Jericho Montana » Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:55 pm

xray wrote:My prepping room is in my basement. Above my prepping room is the kitchen floor. It has 1/2 inch cement board, 1/8 inch morter, and 1/2 inch ceramic tile. If, and when I am ready to add to that layer of protection, I will tile the cieling and reinforce the tiled basement cieling with 3/4 inch plywood so no tile will fall on our heads. This seems to be a realitively inexpensive way to shield us from some of the threat.


xray

Great for an expedient and I do not know the overall structure and location of your house, but consider one threat - fire - and what happens to your shelter IF the main structure above you burns to the ground?

Oxygen depletion tied with highly toxic gas, soon followed by smoke inhalation, and extreme heat.

Causes range from thermal pulse due to nuclear burst or careless campers generating an urban fire storm, forest, or wildland fires or intentionally set by nefarious types to flush the rabbit out of his hole.

I know one cannot cover everything, but as you build your warren, please give due diligence to a "what do I do now" question of uncontrolled fire. Especially if radioactive fallout, volcanic/deep impact ash, gun fire in large quantities, or simply an extreme cold spell are raging outside your home.

This is a question I strongly suggest each and every one of us consider and seek to mitigate to the best of our funds and skills.

Be blessed.

JM
Jericho Montana
 
Posts: 850
Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 10:52 pm
Karma: 29

Re: Expedient shelters (for nuke or RDD incident)

Postby Snowbird Bev 9 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:35 pm

After reading all of this, I am scared to pieces.....I am not able to rely on anybody to help me with any kind of protection. Single and on fixed income, I guess I will either 'fry' with the rest of the country, or die a miserable death. Me and my 2 dogs, will drink my stash of water, and eat like kings until I meet my maker. I just know, that there is nothing I can do, to protect myself. Thanks for scaring the living pants off me!
Snowbird Bev 9
 
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:35 pm
Karma: 0

Re: Expedient shelters (for nuke or RDD incident)

Postby TheLight » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:58 am

Snowbird Bev 9 wrote:After reading all of this, I am scared to pieces.....I am not able to rely on anybody to help me with any kind of protection. Single and on fixed income, I guess I will either 'fry' with the rest of the country, or die a miserable death. Me and my 2 dogs, will drink my stash of water, and eat like kings until I meet my maker. I just know, that there is nothing I can do, to protect myself. Thanks for scaring the living pants off me!


Do the best you can with what you have. A field expedient shelter is a pit in the ground with as much dirt (or other dense material) as possible above you. It doesn't have to be comfortable, just a place to survive for a few days. Have a basement? Build a lean-to of bricks against a wall. Crawl in there. Don't give up.

Here is a link to some simple ones that would be more comfortable than just a hole in the ground.
http://www.civildefensemuseum.com/south ... lters.html

Specifically, this one.
http://www.civildefensemuseum.com/south ... h-12-f.pdf
"Where did I leave that clue-by-four?" -Me
"TheLight is a pot-kicking man-ape gone wrong. But we still love him and his ability to carry entire trees at once." -Rush2112
"All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." ~Winston Churchill

Image
Image http://www.theendofthetunnel.org/
User avatar
TheLight
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 1594
Images: 0
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:51 pm
Location: Hatfield, PA
Karma: 47

Re: Expedient shelters (for nuke or RDD incident)

Postby AlabamaPoleCat » Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:53 am

TheLight wrote:
Snowbird Bev 9 wrote:After reading all of this, I am scared to pieces.....I am not able to rely on anybody to help me with any kind of protection. Single and on fixed income, I guess I will either 'fry' with the rest of the country, or die a miserable death. Me and my 2 dogs, will drink my stash of water, and eat like kings until I meet my maker. I just know, that there is nothing I can do, to protect myself. Thanks for scaring the living pants off me!


Do the best you can with what you have. A field expedient shelter is a pit in the ground with as much dirt (or other dense material) as possible above you. It doesn't have to be comfortable, just a place to survive for a few days. Have a basement? Build a lean-to of bricks against a wall. Crawl in there. Don't give up.

Here is a link to some simple ones that would be more comfortable than just a hole in the ground.
http://www.civildefensemuseum.com/south ... lters.html

Specifically, this one.
http://www.civildefensemuseum.com/south ... h-12-f.pdf
I've also read years ago during the hieght of the cold war, a makeshift fallout sheltar can be made by digging a trench and placing some doors, removed from your house over the top of the trench then pile dirt on top of the doors. IIRC the numbers they gave at that time were that dirt/sand acctualy gave more protection from Radiation per inch then concret or bricks. Not all radation penatrates through a substance, lots of it deflects... Due to the nature of sand and dirt being made up of many small particles at random angles the the deflection facture has much greater effect then the absorbtion or stopping effect of density. Think of Light which is a radiation taking millions of years to get out of the center of the sun where' its created to the surface of the sun. It takes that long because the Light radiation is defected by all the random atoms and the angles they are at. Also think of the T-34 tank in WWII the reason it survived better the the German tanks wasn't the it's armor was thicker, but that it was angled, so rounds deflected off of it's angled armor easier the the german's Flat verticly armored tanks.
Revelations: " Good guys win Bad guys lose"

"One of the penalties of not participating in politics is that you will be governed by your inferiors." Plato
Sheep Dogs Unite!

Your god with his hammer loses the final battle. My God wins the final battle. Any questions?
AlabamaPoleCat
Alabama Preppers Network
Alabama Preppers Network
 
Posts: 2051
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 1:09 pm
Location: The Home of the Crimson Tide

Re: Expedient shelters (for nuke or RDD incident)

Postby direly » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:28 pm

that is called "having too much stuff", pard. Or way too many people in your group. All you need is a dugout measuring 2'x2' x 7 ft, per person, with a foot of dirt over you. Enlarge it when and if you ever need to occupy it. If fallout is an issue, deepen it to one side, down and at an angle, so that you get the 3 ft of dirt over you needed to stop gamma rays. if you can't shore it up, maybe there will be enough space to still let you dig out in case of a collapse. If you do the door thing, make that ditch a narrow one, use at least a pair of SOLID doors. A couple of hollow core doors will almost certainly collapse if you get some rain on 3 ft of dirt piled upon 2 such doors. Fallout is a very small issue after a month has passed, since the bomb detonated. In fact, after 2 weeks, you can safely emerge for short emergency trips.
direly
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:25 am
Karma: 1

Previous

Return to Survival Shelters

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


Email Newsletter icon, E-mail Newsletter icon, Email List icon, E-mail List icon Sign up for the APN Email Newsletter - Enter your e-mail address below


  Links and Resources
  -Links
  -Podcasts
  -Free Ebooks



Trusted Sponsors











Copyright
For Notices of Copyright infringement and to contact our DMCA Agent please follow the link below:
Copyright Policy

For terms of use, rules, and policies please read our Disclaimer