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Re: What will happen to ALASKA

Postby GrumpyMillenial » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:58 am

hear hear.
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Re: What will happen to ALASKA

Postby Permafrost » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:03 am

GrumpyMillenial wrote:I have a bit of an issue with people talking about "having a native woman for a wife" or "women won't be able to do as well" That seems pretty shallow.

Not trying to be shallow or offend, but if you start with a woman who is used to a outhouse or honey bucket it generally goes better. The majority of women are not used to this unless they are from a village or homestead, and the majority of those women are native.

I love my wife and would not change her, but she loves hot running water. This creates a difficult relationship.
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Re: What will happen to ALASKA

Postby muskegmike » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:43 pm

All we can do is try to do the best with the hand we are dealt. I have as many or more personal hindrances as anyone, most of them internal, but also some that are external. I think that shallowness and prepping are not very compatible and the former is unlikely to be a personality trait of those that practice the latter. I hear valid points from both perspectives.

Back to the OP topic of what will happen to Alaska is what interests me, as situational awareness is a key component for survival in any scenario, whether practiced consciously or not.

I arrived all alone as a fresh young buck in the Fairbanks area just before the big rush from below of all the pipeline workers (1971). The overall pioneer spirit and individual tenacity and willingness to endure hardship marked the general population that I observed. Over the years, I have witnessed a gradual shift in attitude. In the last few years, especially since I began monitoring online comments of locals, I have realized that the balance seems to be shifting left and liberal. With it comes an expectation of support from the government and a unavoidable restraint over the individual in favor of the group. I suppose some of this is necessary when numbers increase, but the original character of the region has transformed to the point where misfits like myself are increasingly relegated to the fringes. I used to see bumper stickers that said "freezing in the dark builds character" now I see "Young, poor, and angry".

This change disturbs me, especially because we are at the end of the supply lines and the large population here is highly dependent on that thin and fragile thread. Even a well intentioned person will go to extreme lengths to feed their family. An entitled self styled social activist with a victimization narrative will only act that much quicker when deprived of their State-Given support.

Any number of disaster scenarios down south could snip our supply lines nearly instantly. I hope a more gradual decline occurs, allowing families to pull up stakes and embark for what they perceive to be more survivable climes outside Alaska. I fear, however, that it will not be enough to make it safe anywhere near the main towns when some sort of critical mass finally happens.

Therefore, an ongoing awareness of events far and wide, combined with a continual grooming of escape routes and destinations, capped with an attitude of readiness to move is all I can hope for on my part. Its not easy to maintain this posture and never perfectly achieved.

I would love to work in connection with a few others beyond that I already have, but I do not want to get caught in a relationship that compromises my goals (or worse). So here I am fishing the river while the weather is good.
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Re: What will happen to ALASKA

Postby Permafrost » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:14 pm

muskegmike wrote:I arrived all alone as a fresh young buck in the Fairbanks area just before the big rush from below of all the pipeline workers (1971). The overall pioneer spirit and individual tenacity and willingness to endure hardship marked the general population that I observed. Over the years, I have witnessed a gradual shift in attitude. In the last few years, especially since I began monitoring online comments of locals, I have realized that the balance seems to be shifting left and liberal. With it comes an expectation of support from the government and a unavoidable restraint over the individual in favor of the group. I suppose some of this is necessary when numbers increase, but the original character of the region has transformed to the point where misfits like myself are increasingly relegated to the fringes. I used to see bumper stickers that said "freezing in the dark builds character" now I see "Young, poor, and angry".

It is sad what has become of our country since both the american occupation and the pipeline. I generally lump Alaska history (for those still living) into 4 groups: pre statehood, pre pipeline, those old enough to remember green meat in stores, and post american cultural expansion. My family was here pre statehood on one side, and pre pipeline on the other side. I remember as a kid that we would never throw anything away, we had a scrap lumber pile & a iron pile that we would get what we needed from, very little was bought new from the store. Now I see people complaining about their neighbors yard and the "mess" that makes their home value drop. Used to be everyone had 2 or 3 cars (or 6x6's) and a few boats or old snowmachines in the yard for parts, now this is considered a junk yard. Attitudes on weather have even changed, as a kid nobody would ever portray any happiness about a warm snap because it meant overflow and thin ice. Now I had a lady tell me the other day that my complaining about the warmth was "rude" and I should take a boat where I needed if there was no ice, she was a military wife working as a bank teller. Gone are the river ice reports on the news, and people generally never leave the road system now. It amazes me how those that come here now never even try to understand our culture, and they even take great joy in destroying it. The ability to weather hardship & the independent spirit has left Alaska for the most part, and what has replaced it is the americanization of our country.

Electricity and indoor plumbing are now expected when once they were a luxury, that says it all.

Speaking of bumper stickers, there were some great one that I never see anymore. "Alaskans are housebroken, we don't $hit in the house" "my other vehicle is a Weasel" and "stockpile food fuel & ammunition, vote Alaska Independence Party"
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Re: What will happen to ALASKA

Postby GrumpyMillenial » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:06 pm

Things have changed, for sure, and I myself shake my head even at the changes in my short lifetime, but I can't say that it has been for the worse. Coming from a liberal, college student's perspective, I think greater social freedoms and better technology has allowed us to accomplish a lot that we wouldn't have otherewise been able to do, and that's all across the globe. I would much rather have electricity and running water and a good car than not, and we have also become more accepting of people's differences than before, we have a smaller gender gap for example, and air regulations let us all stay healthier. Liberals have done a lot of this and changed the state for the better.

However, I think what you're saying is that people have become complacent in their cozy homes. That is very true. The self-reliant infrastructure that was there is gone, simply because we don't need it anymore. It's the Use it or lose it theory. Our modern comforts have allowed us to focus on improving our equality and other issues that need fixing in society, but they have brought us away from our roots and that "good ole' pioneer spirit" I think the problem some older folks have is that they are worried that we will all die when the modern comforts are taken away, which might very-well happen. The "young 'uns" (statistically overwhelmingly liberals) on the other hand, are raring to go change the world for the better, which is great, but since the economy is on the brink of a crash, we can no longer rely on the warm cushion of boom-times that we grew up with and those issues are no longer priorities, which is sad.

I do not think being a liberal is a bad thing though, and I also do not begrudge the older, more conservative generation. society needs both if we are to retain the independant, pioneer spirit, and keep our social values in tact as well. liberal people are good at finding new and better ways to do things, and conservatives are good at keeping us grounded and organized. What we need to do is stop labeling eachother and pointing out what is wrong with the other party, and start waking up to the facts and figuring out how to live well in this cruddy, collapsing world we live in.
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Re: What will happen to ALASKA

Postby Permafrost » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:54 pm

I'm not sure how you think we do not need a self reliant infrastructure any more. Just look at all the power outages we have had in the last few years. Then there is the shortages, a few years ago the trucks could not get through and the shelves at the store were getting empty, and the produce section was completely empty. I remember as a kid there was no toilet paper in town, anywhere, one winter.

I would not be all that proud of the new air regulations, it will mean many people who were previously heat self reliant are now dependent on the grid for heat. The solution to the air problem was dilution, not regulation. People previously burned wood for their heat and it was not a problem because there were not that many people here, but because of massive immigration (mostly american) to the Fairbanks Bowl we now have to many people for a sustainable environment.

I will say that liberals have given us some great gifts, it used to be that people had to have a "accident" with their new babies (generally drowning) if they did not have enough resources to care for them. Now there is another option for keeping the population down. Hospice is great, I know a old native lady (at least 90 if she is a day) who had to gather firewood and light the fire for her grandfather when they left him in the woods to die, it scared her as she was very young, now people do not have to do this.
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Re: What will happen to ALASKA

Postby GrumpyMillenial » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:39 pm

I think you misunderstand me, I meant we generally don't need to be so self reliant, in fact working together is the only way to progress human society, but i was agreeing that many people are overly reliant on the grid. Electricity lets us not worry about heat and saftey most of the time but now when we have power outages instead of shrugging and lighting the woodstove, many people go without heat and freeze. My point is that I don't like the general categorizing of people as being wrong or right. I don't think any of us knows exactly what is the right balence of technelogical advancement and a stable infrastructure. It's a very complicated issue.
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Re: What will happen to ALASKA

Postby daaswampman » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:33 pm

GrumpyMillenial:

I think you have a good grasp on the situation. Some people cling to the past for whatever reasons and others want something better. Why anyone would want to live like their great grandparents is beyond me. I would love some of the wide open spaces and privacy they enjoyed, but I like things like the net, lighting, better food, better tools, better clothing, available healthcare, mobility, freedom of choice, etc., etc. Things they could never have dreamed of.

If the big one happens there will be survivors and non survivors in every area for different reasons. People may talk about the old ways, but what are they talking about? I doubt I will be running through the swamp with a spear chasing something to eat and I doubt anyone in Alaska will be doing that either!

As my niece would say (bless her sweet little liberal soul) If the good old days were so good - why has every generation worked to change it for the better? Swamp
People rarely notice what it right in front of their eyes. The Da Vinci Code
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Re: What will happen to ALASKA

Postby Permafrost » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:54 pm

daaswampman wrote:If the big one happens there will be survivors and non survivors in every area for different reasons. People may talk about the old ways, but what are they talking about? I doubt I will be running through the swamp with a spear chasing something to eat and I doubt anyone in Alaska will be doing that either!

You should be careful what you talk about Swamp. I personally know people who still spear caribou out of a canoe (1 paddling & 1 spearing) as they are crossing the Yukon River. I've speared caribou out of a boat, it is actually as effective as shooting them if you do it right. Many people also hunt with long bows still as well, and it is very popular because it allows them to hunt in proximity to the pipeline. Both are traditional means of harvesting game to eat and are utilized by people to this day. Speak only for yourself, not for Alaska Swamp.

If the old ways are so worthless, why do people still make fire with friction? why do people still smoke salmon? why do people still trap? why do they still store food in caches outside or in permafrost freezers? These skills are as relevant today as they were thousands of years ago.
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Re: What will happen to ALASKA

Postby daaswampman » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:15 am

Permafrost wrote:
daaswampman wrote:If the big one happens there will be survivors and non survivors in every area for different reasons. People may talk about the old ways, but what are they talking about? I doubt I will be running through the swamp with a spear chasing something to eat and I doubt anyone in Alaska will be doing that either!

You should be careful what you talk about Swamp. I personally know people who still spear caribou out of a canoe (1 paddling & 1 spearing) as they are crossing the Yukon River. I've speared caribou out of a boat, it is actually as effective as shooting them if you do it right. Many people also hunt with long bows still as well, and it is very popular because it allows them to hunt in proximity to the pipeline. Both are traditional means of harvesting game to eat and are utilized by people to this day. Speak only for yourself, not for Alaska Swamp.

If the old ways are so worthless, why do people still make fire with friction? why do people still smoke salmon? why do people still trap? why do they still store food in caches outside or in permafrost freezers? These skills are as relevant today as they were thousands of years ago.


One can believe whatever they wish, but seriously how many people will use or benefit from the old ways? Even you have stated the old ways up there will be gone in fifty years. Give you a few more warm years and it will be gone even sooner. I can make fire with friction which is fun for entertainment and bowfish, hunt and trap for fun. That makes little different when I can raise more food in my greenhouses, with far less effort and risk.

Cling to the old ways if you wish, but the world is changing very fast. Twenty years ago we did not have wild hogs in this area, now they are everywhere. Five years ago I did not have tilapia and now the bayou is full of them. Locals used to trap for hides, now nobody wants them. Believe what you want, but the old ways are all but dead. Swamp
People rarely notice what it right in front of their eyes. The Da Vinci Code
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Re: What will happen to ALASKA

Postby Permafrost » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:18 am

You sound almost gleeful that it is warm here, and that people are suffering. Lets see in the last 8 hours you have equated me to a animal that is just trying to scrounge up my next meal in a different topic and now you find joy in the suffering of hundreds if not thousands of people. Not everyone who is suffering embraces the old ways, there are also many communities that rely heavily on river ice for the resupply of their communities by gas powered snowmachines as well as the remote oil camps that get their supplies brought in by cat train. Must be that christian good will toward their fellow man I keep hearing so much about. Love thy neighbor and all that, right. You really are a (insult edited out by forum moderator. KNOCK IT OFF!) . I do not try to tell you how to live down in the swamps, but somehow you know better than everyone up here and are qualified to tell us how to live. If you knew anything about hunting heard animals you would know that the old ways are the best not because they are low tech, but because they make less noise and do not spook the herd. A skilled hunter can get 4 or 5 caribou from a canoe in the river if they are not using a engine or firearm, a skilled hunter who has set themselves up right and are in front of the herd as they migrate can get 2 or 3 caribou before they spook if they are using a bow. I am sure that you can raise more food in your greenhouse than you can get hunting or fishing down there, that is because you do not have a 3 month long growing season and people down there have decimated the game populations. We still have game populations here and they make up the bulk of our diet. Every location is different, stick with what you know and don't speculate about things you know nothing about.
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Re: What will happen to ALASKA

Postby muskegmike » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:31 pm

I apologize to all for my personal slurs toward "liberals". I should have known better (for multiple reasons). Most of that particular political persuasion that I know are actually well meaning people, as are most "conservatives" that I know, though the fundamental approach is different. I think my personal bias is really toward anti-statism - i.e. collectivism. But that is probably not an appropriate topic for this forum.

Permafrost probably best summed my actual opinion by saying the problem (solution?) is one of dilution. There are just too many people up here to support if systems fail. Its really no one's fault, just an inevitable turn of events. The political trends were also predetermined by social evolutionary forces. It is useless for me to bemoan the inevitable. But an integral part of prepping is to consider and anticipate as many upcoming scenarios as possible.

But as I metaphorically stated, I am testing new fishing grounds. I have never been successful trolling, and have always wound up regretting it through messed up equipment, snagged undesirables, etc. I grew up fishing with worms, bobbers and a bamboo pole in still clear water. Later I progressed to gill nets and set lines in a fast, muddy river. Regardless of method, one must know the waters and the behavioral characteristics of the local fish. Sometimes that takes trial and error.

I think that the recent trend of quasi-survival reality shows and the popularity of zombie culture has trivialized prepper attitudes and desensitized even those that might consider the process. Then there is the systematic effort by various entities to demonize subsets within these overall groups as potential domestic terrorists. Please note for the record that I do not subscribe to initiation of violence toward anyone. I am just saying that general public perception and hence emotional response toward stigmatized groups during extreme events may result in consequences difficult to avoid.

Disaster stays remote or abstract as long as it does not touch. When it does, it often comes suddenly and unexpectedly, in ways that might not have been considered or prepared for. it makes sense, if one is truly committed to preparation, to cover for as many possibilities as one can, however remote they may seem. Of course, one can never prepare for everything. I could create a multi-leveled system of safety nets, only to not wake up tomorrow morning. But as some have said, this is a life style. As such, life styles vary greatly. It is not my place to criticize another's choice in that respect. But it is still my right to develop my systems and seek others who approximate that approach.

It is your right to do the same. If someone takes exception to that, it usually remains within them, and will play out however it will for them as events progress.
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Re: What will happen to ALASKA

Postby GrumpyMillenial » Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:06 pm

Don't fight over "old ways" and "new ways" guys, the great thing about when collapse come s is that we will be able to take something proven (like wood heat) and use our modern knowledge to make it more effecient, like using our knowledge of insulation and circulation when bulding a house. I think the best example is disease. in the good ol days people got sick and died a lot and didn't know about germs and sterilization. while we may not have the medical supplies when SHTF, we all know how to boil and filter water and wash our hands and all that.
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Re: What will happen to ALASKA

Postby GrumpyMillenial » Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:10 pm

muskegmike wrote:I think that the recent trend of quasi-survival reality shows and the popularity of zombie culture has trivialized prepper attitudes and desensitized even those that might consider the process.


I totally agree, I think way back when it was just accepted that you would set food aside for winter and prepare for disasters, now it's seen as really weird and you must be preparing for zombies, which is one of the least likely of disasters.
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Re: What will happen to ALASKA

Postby daaswampman » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:07 pm

Permafrost wrote:You sound almost gleeful that it is warm here, and that people are suffering. Lets see in the last 8 hours you have equated me to a animal that is just trying to scrounge up my next meal in a different topic and now you find joy in the suffering of hundreds if not thousands of people. Not everyone who is suffering embraces the old ways, there are also many communities that rely heavily on river ice for the resupply of their communities by gas powered snowmachines as well as the remote oil camps that get their supplies brought in by cat train. Must be that christian good will toward their fellow man I keep hearing so much about. Love thy neighbor and all that, right. (insult edited out by forum moderator. KNOCK IT OFF!) I do not try to tell you how to live down in the swamps, but somehow you know better than everyone up here and are qualified to tell us how to live. If you knew anything about hunting heard animals you would know that the old ways are the best not because they are low tech, but because they make less noise and do not spook the herd. A skilled hunter can get 4 or 5 caribou from a canoe in the river if they are not using a engine or firearm, a skilled hunter who has set themselves up right and are in front of the herd as they migrate can get 2 or 3 caribou before they spook if they are using a bow. I am sure that you can raise more food in your greenhouse than you can get hunting or fishing down there, that is because you do not have a 3 month long growing season and people down there have decimated the game populations. We still have game populations here and they make up the bulk of our diet. Every location is different, stick with what you know and don't speculate about things you know nothing about.


You really are a (insult edited out by forum moderator. KNOCK IT OFF!) . That may or may not be true, but I would never refuse to improve my life for myself and my family, or blame all my ills on anyone other than myself. The last time I checked I did not control the weather or time. Like it or not, everything is changing and it is adapt or don't. As far as Alaska, your the last person to be giving lectures about care or compassion. Swamp
People rarely notice what it right in front of their eyes. The Da Vinci Code
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