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HHO Post shtf

Discussions about Fuel Cells

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HHO Post shtf

Postby froglevel » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:40 pm

I made a very similar post last august in another forum for information purposes. I make it again here in hopes of getting real feedback.

During fuel shortages or disasters low/poor quality fuels need a boost. I've had a hydrogen booster cell on my truck the last 5 years. I've averaged an 18% increase in fuel mileage during that time. (See pics below) This cell can be built from parts purchased at Lowe’s.

This is the old smacksbooster (many thanks to eletrik). A pdf of this open source design is at
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Smack.pdf

The design has thermal issues and other limitations. However, post shtf it can be of real help to many. It’s very simple to build and can boost many types of fuel, gasoline, diesel, propane, natural gas and wood gas to name a few.

Principle, produce hydrogen and oxygen gas from water, it's been done since the 1790's. Use electricity to burst water molecules, instead of H2O a liquid, it becomes HHO a gas. For a complete understanding of this technology and it's history go to http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Hydroxy%20Boosters.pdf Cells have come a long way in just the last 5 years. This website will give a clear picture of new developments as well. You'll find lists of suppliers for components or whole systems.

For parts and info these guys are also a great resource. (especially if you want to play around with monatomic and diatomic hydrogen). http://www.hydrogengarage.com/

Many folks have off the shelf generators. To run poor quality fuels the timing needs to be adjusted which usually isn’t possible. However, there are timing kits available for small engines (like Briggs) from go-cart racing parts suppliers. This allows for the adjustment of spark timing.

I built several of these smack cells about 5 years ago, more than one is still running. I have material to build more and am sure I could adapt it to several engine types. I simply haven’t had time to experiment with the post shtf scenario. Have any of you? Has anyone else scaled this design down? Or built crude dry cells?

(my apologies to car guys out there, yes, this is a chevy engine. The day I picked up the short block and parts the only engine paint the store had was ford blue)
Attachments
Cath anode plates 01.jpg
Cathode Anode Stack 1
Cath anode plates 02.jpg
Cathode Anode Stack 2
Demo cell.jpg
Demo Acrylic Cell Housing
Cell 001.jpg
Operational Cell 1
Cell 002.jpg
Operational Cell 2
Hydrogen to Eng.jpg
Hydrogen routed to engine air intake
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Re: HHO Post shtf

Postby cherokeenut » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:26 am

I spent quite a bit of time and $$ on these several years ago, I still have two gens. One is built and one is just parts but ready to be assembled. There are several problems with these gens that make them impractical for most drivers. To start, we are entering winter and yes they will freeze solid, if you add anything to them to keep them liquid then you won't produce HHO. Second, you need a catalyst to generate HHO and get the process going, I can't remember the dry chemical I used but it produced good HHO however it also let a residue pass into the engine that was both poisonous to humans and harmfull to the engine. I have heard of natural catalysts however but have not tried them. My experience with two large gens was that they would supliment the gasoline and that was it, milage increase was no where near what it advertised. After gas went down below $3 I abandoned the project. As a note, HHO gens will NOT function correctly with '96 and newer OBDII computer systems. OBDII is an adaptive system and although you will see a jump in 3-5 mpg at first, the computer quickly adapts to the "O" (extra oxygen molecule) and therefore richens the fuel mixture to correct. Adding a electronic devise in line for the MAP or O2 sensor is a patch at he very most, it's like trying to fix your advanced laptop with a vacume tube, won't happen. Can HHO gens be made to run an engine by them selves? No, the gens would be huge and you are dealing with a lot of very flamible gas (not gasoline) to deal with, one spark and BOOM! Trust me I did, ears were ringing for hours.
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Re: HHO Post shtf

Postby dbrundage » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:44 am

I have been looking for a cheep source of the clear piping.
Where did you get it? Lowes?
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Re: HHO Post shtf

Postby froglevel » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:09 am

“I spent quite a bit of time…. There are several problems with these gens that make them impractical for most drivers.”

I am not talking about your daily commute!

"I can't remember the dry chemical" - There are 2 chemicals easily referenced from the links and purchased from soap making websites. Sodium Hydroxide or Potassium-Hydroxide

Yes Sir, you’ve walked down the same rocky paths as me. Everything you wrote is true. I live in a rural area, lots of old vehicles. Also, I made this work on farm vehicles because I had to. But…

------------------------------------------------------

I’m talking about teotwawki. A little hydrogen will go a long way. So simple to do! I’m looking for experimenters who’ve toyed with bad and poor quality fuels. Who has tried this on wood gas or natural gas?

These generators are so simple to build. It’d be a shame to waste the knowledge when needed most, or scare people away out of context!

-----------------------------------------------------

“I have been looking for a cheep source of the clear piping”

I built a demo so folks could see hydrogen being produced. Acrylic pipe is pricey! You can buy it at “McMaster-Carr” and it’s Not Cheap!
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Re: HHO Post shtf

Postby Gunns » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:49 am

Well this baffles my mind, being an engineer and everything. How does producing HHO become economical? It takes more energy to produce it then it produces itself? From what I understand no one has broken the laws of thermodynamics.
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Re: HHO Post shtf

Postby froglevel » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:39 am

Gunns wrote:Well this baffles my mind, .


I provided the above link so folks can learn for themselves how this proven technology works.

There’s always some who nay-say the facts without reading them! Is that how engineers from your area operate? It’s not the way I was trained.

A little history..

http://www.hydrotechnix.moonfruit.com/# ... 4533861657
http://brownsgas.com/history.html
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Re: HHO Post shtf

Postby cherokeenut » Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:50 pm

Gunns wrote:Well this baffles my mind, being an engineer and everything. How does producing HHO become economical? It takes more energy to produce it then it produces itself? From what I understand no one has broken the laws of thermodynamics.

You are correct on all accounts, not worth the money and effort.
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Re: HHO Post shtf

Postby Wild Cookery » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:07 pm

This is something that could come in quite handy on older and unreliable fuel. It's not like everyone is going to keep a zillion cans of gas additive around. Gas doesn't typically last two years or so, even treated and stabilized. So in a SHTF situation, this could mean the difference between having fuel you can run on, and no fuel at all.
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Re: HHO Post shtf

Postby froglevel » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:43 pm

Exactly

Hydrogen gas is impractical for most modern engines with electronic controls. It’s certainly not worth it for folks whose lack of skill almost gets them blown up.

I’ve been using these cells over 5 years now without explosions or damaged engines. I find failures interesting but was hoping to find others who’d been successful and carried their experiments even further. Experiments from a prepper point of view.
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Re: HHO Post shtf

Postby Pedro wyoming » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:47 pm

A few musings of my own experience...

I have been tinkering with HHO for a couple of years and generating H2 directly. The Kelly link has the best detail for the novice but his design uses 12VDC a@ 20 amps. H2O hydrolyses at 4VDC and any greater voltage generates lots of heat and Kelly mentions this in his link. This is an incredible waste of energy and can cause the water to boil off and run the electrolysis chamber dry. This will destroy the PVC used and make a mess at best, a corrosive hazard at worse.
I started with NaCL as the electrolyte and found that after the Chlorine is boiled off, it converts to NaOH. This happens to be the same way lye is produced industrially.

i did not run anything long enough to have any electronic problems so i cannot speak to any of those problems. I doubt that any significant increase in fuel efficency will occur unless you have a reaction chamber with a couple of square feet of electrode surface area and several gallons of water.

I used an oil bath for a back flash prevention. The slightly higher viscosity creates a positive pressure in the reaction chamber and reduces any siphon effect from the bubble chamber.
Distilled water is recommended in all of the links that i read, but tap water can be used and the stainless steel electrodes can be cleaned with an acid. HCl is best, but even vinegar or citric acid will work only takes a lot longer.

I also tried to use HHO as a power source for lighting and stove top use. I quickly found that the difference between flammable and explosive is too close to use safely in these applications. I could not find any odourant to use in in straight run H2 generation and abandoned it as a safety hazard. It is fun to do and cool to play with, but as it stands now, all the HHO ideas are amusing toys but not practical or particularly economical.

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Re: HHO Post shtf

Postby cherokeenut » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:43 pm

froglevel wrote:Exactly

Hydrogen gas is impractical for most modern engines with electronic controls. It’s certainly not worth it for folks whose lack of skill almost gets them blown up.

I’ve been using these cells over 5 years now without explosions or damaged engines. I find failures interesting but was hoping to find others who’d been successful and carried their experiments even further. Experiments from a prepper point of view.

Lacking skills? Hmmm, well lets see here, ASE Master mechanic certified in on board engine management and controls along with 8 other cerifications and 36 years experience. Yeah I'd say I lack skills.
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Re: HHO Post shtf

Postby Wild Cookery » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:46 pm

Sounds like froglevel is mostly talking about using these on late model vehicles, especially geared to be able to enrich the fuel in a post SHTF scenario. I don't imagine it would be worth the effort on the highway. But after SHTF such a thing might be priceless to be able to run fuel that others can't.
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Re: HHO Post shtf

Postby froglevel » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:03 pm

When I first started tinkering with hydrogen it was a toy, neat to play around with. Over time my concern has shifted to producing beef and crops post collapse. I store a lot more fuel these days to that end. At some point It will run out or become unusable.

What I now consider not very practical will become very practical if I can extend a 2 year supply a few weeks or most importantly run garbage fuel in an engine. Since I have the technical skills I see no reason not to pursue hydrogen to that end. In this light I view hydrogen just like any other fuel additive. People buy octane boost every day. Costing more to produce than what someone gets out of it is entirely subjective.

In the next phase I’m looking at woodgas engines. In my experience so far the fuel quality is continually changing, second by second, a real problem not to mention an annoyance. A practical way to address this issue is a fuel additive in gaseous form. When I started this thread I hoped someone was way ahead of me with this thought.
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Re: HHO Post shtf

Postby bane5150 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:07 pm

It takes alot of AMPS to produce usable amounts of HHO. If there was a way to store and compress this gas it could work very well. This gas really burns hot and fast, 1 accident and you might not live to tell the tale (Given it was in a compressed tank).
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Re: HHO Post shtf

Postby froglevel » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:33 pm

It is certainly dangerous! I've always used extreme caution, triple check my work. A complete check before starting an engine, every time. After all in the 50's they built bombs with it!
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