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Proof of Ownership of Real Property

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Proof of Ownership of Real Property

Postby gawntrail » Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:18 am

How would one prove to others that they own a specific piece of property if gov't electronic and paper records are no longer accessible and/or if there is no organized/recognized authority to appeal to....

...if it is fully paid for?

1) If there are no records to independently show 'official' proof that my deed is legitimate...

2) If there is no one to hear and adjudicate the disagreement...

And, what about if there is a mortgage? Obviously, more complicated...

Very interested in any/all opinions.
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Re: Proof of Ownership of Real Property

Postby Lynda1 » Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:47 am

We keep receipts for paid property taxes for a number of years. That should be proof enough and if your mortgage is paid a copy of the deed, a copy of the land purchase. All of those records should be retained by you.
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Re: Proof of Ownership of Real Property

Postby anita » Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:04 am

You should have your original deed, stamped from the recorder of deeds (that's what it is in my state), and a copy of the settlement sheet. As Lynda said, keep the property tax receipts as well. I imagine if you have the electric bills you paid, etc., that might also serve as some proof that you lived there (I'm thinking in terms of squatters).

As to the mortgage--you should have a stamped satisfaction piece that should have been sent to you after you paid off the mortgage. (I also received a letter from the mortgage company when they received the payoff check, telling me that the mortgage was paid off, but that isn't recorded. Legally it doesn't mean squat, but it would be some proof that the bank considered it paid off, if you never get a Sat Piece) If you never had a mortgage, your settlement sheet (that's not what it's called any more, you might know it as a HUD-1, but now there is a new term for it that escapes me) proves that you paid cash for the property.

I read a book a few years ago (non-fiction--I think it was Crash-Point 2.0, but not sure) dealing with the coming financial disaster. It suggested that the way mortgages would be dealt with was that those who had paid off more than 50% of the mortgage would retain the property. Those who owed more than 50% OF THE MORTGAGE'S ORIGINAL VALUE would lose the property to the bank. Now, before I get flamed (that's what happened the last time I mentioned this--chill! It's not my suggestion, just the author's), understand that I didn't find that to be logical when I first read it, but the more I thought about it, it could be a resolution.

Understand that if there is an economic crash, we have no idea what the value of real estate would be. Houses on a half-acre lot worth $1.5 million now might be of little value. Small ranch houses on a few acres might be worth more, because you can farm them, or they are easier to maintain, or whatever. But let's assume that the value of everything falls. Substantially. That seems logical. The point is--who knows? And it will take a long time to sort out. But there has to be some way to fairly determine ownership.

The logic is this. You own a house and its original value was $500,000 (for sake of example) and the mortgage on it was $400,000 originally (20% down) and you've paid down $50,000, but after an economic crash the house value has diminished substantially. You still owe $350,000. (Your debt doesn't change just because the home value does.) Who really owns more of that house at this point? The bank who is still out $350,000, or the home"owner" who put in $150,000?

There are many ways you can play the example. But the point is, that, just as when you go to sell your current house in a falling market you have to forget what you paid initially, (and believe me, I know that the tendency of sellers is to NOT forget what they paid for the property, no matter what current values are) so too would you have to ignore your purchase price and deal with the new reality in the case of economic collapse. And that reality may be that you owe a whole lot more money on a property that isn't worth the mortgage value (it's under water, so to speak). That happened to a lot of "little money down" folks in the last economic calamity in 2007-2008.

I used to sell real estate and my husband owned a title insurance company. And please, I don't want to be told how wrong this is, this can't happen, blah, blah, just because you don't like the scenario. I read this possibility in a book. I have no idea if it is what would happen or not, but it is a logical resolution and to me made some sense--or as much sense as anything else.

Now, as to your question #2. That's a whole different scenario. Everything above assumes that we still have some semblance of a decent society. There you have a lawless society, and then it's going to come down to possession being 9/10ths of the law, I guess.
In honor of RebNavy: "Then call us Rebels if you will, we glory in the name, for bending under unjust laws and swearing faith to an unjust cause, we count as greater shame". Richmond Daily Dispatch May 12 1862

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Re: Proof of Ownership of Real Property

Postby Fullmoon » Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:15 am

In this state , when you purchase property with a mortgage or an owner/buyer land contract you will receive a Grant Deed from the title company. The Grant Deed lists the sellers name and your name as the buyer. After you make your last payment you must apply for a Deed Of Reconveyance which lists your name as the sole owner of that property. This new deed proves you own the land free and clear and you must record it at your county recorders office. It would be wise to write down the page number and book number of this recording for any future reference. The county will make a copy of the new deed and give you back the original for safe keeping.
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Re: Proof of Ownership of Real Property

Postby Dirk Williams » Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:08 pm

Full moon, is that the " Oregon homestead act your referring to?

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Re: Proof of Ownership of Real Property

Postby Pedro wyoming » Sat Jul 02, 2016 4:36 pm

If there are no longer any records then the possessor IS the owner. Might makes right regardless of the title holder. If there is (was) a mortgage holder then it is highlyb likely that it is no longer valid without a title.

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Re: Proof of Ownership of Real Property

Postby kenjabroni » Sat Jul 02, 2016 5:12 pm

Pedro wyoming wrote:If there are no longer any records then the possessor IS the owner. Might makes right regardless of the title holder. If there is (was) a mortgage holder then it is highlyb likely that it is no longer valid without a title.

pW



I agree with Pedro. In a SHTF scenario as unfortunate as it may be possession will be 9/10ths of the law. If everything around has gone back a couple hundred of years because of an event you wont have anyone to call or go to to settle anything so keep it, defend it and do whatever you can to keep it out of someone elses hands. If you make a run for supplies leave someone there to do those things. If you cannot and you come back and someone has squatted, then more than likely you will have to remove them and itll probably have to be by force unfortunately.
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Re: Proof of Ownership of Real Property

Postby daaswampman » Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:17 pm

Know your local laws and keep copies of taxes and deeds. However a quick look at our own history, reveals many properties changed hands unwillingly. Your local Sheriff or judge may be making the final decisions in a SHTF Situation. I suggest you know them well and be on the their side of the law. You really can't tell from a signature whether a man was looking at a pile of money or the barrel of a gun. Same thing with a Notary Seal. Swamp
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Re: Proof of Ownership of Real Property

Postby Mollypup » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:30 am

As we've seen on the news even in these modern tech times squatters can come in and take over possession of a property and there isn't much the home owner can do about it, depending upon where you live. "squatters rights" I think it's called. Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

Once the SHTF the last thing on anyone's list of priorities is going to be who owns what, and it's even more doubtful they're going to care, unless you've got something they want.......say a good garden, water supply, food, ect. As Swamp said being good friends with local law enforcement & judges might help, then again, it may not if they don't like the fact you have food & supplies and they don't happen to have any.

Priorities will be shelter, food, water, supplies, and protecting those things. Most folks won't leave their current housing until need drives them out. Some won't even then, due to an odd reaction of humans to cling to the familiar in times of crisis. I don't see it playing out like any disaster scenario we've seen thus far. A SHTF situation is going to affect everyone equally & all will have more important things on their mind other than property ownership. In such a situation your deed most likely won't be worth the paper it's printed on. If someone wants your property, has the means in which to take it, they'll take it. Unless someone else wants it, odds are low anyone will bother to stop them. They'll be too busy looking out for their own self interest to worry about yours.
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Re: Proof of Ownership of Real Property

Postby anita » Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:51 am

Mollypup wrote:As we've seen on the news even in these modern tech times squatters can come in and take over possession of a property and there isn't much the home owner can do about it, depending upon where you live. "squatters rights" I think it's called. Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

Once the SHTF the last thing on anyone's list of priorities is going to be who owns what, and it's even more doubtful they're going to care, unless you've got something they want.......say a good garden, water supply, food, ect. As Swamp said being good friends with local law enforcement & judges might help, then again, it may not if they don't like the fact you have food & supplies and they don't happen to have any.

Priorities will be shelter, food, water, supplies, and protecting those things. Most folks won't leave their current housing until need drives them out. Some won't even then, due to an odd reaction of humans to cling to the familiar in times of crisis. I don't see it playing out like any disaster scenario we've seen thus far. A SHTF situation is going to affect everyone equally & all will have more important things on their mind other than property ownership. In such a situation your deed most likely won't be worth the paper it's printed on. If someone wants your property, has the means in which to take it, they'll take it. Unless someone else wants it, odds are low anyone will bother to stop them. They'll be too busy looking out for their own self interest to worry about yours.


The thing is, it all depends on how the SHTF. I can imagine some scenarios where we have a total meltdown disaster, no electricity, no means of transportation outside of your legs, etc. But the next SHTF scenario might be much like the Great Depression, or what's happening in Venezuela right now. Who knows? However, the talk about squatters and possession being 9/10ths of the law makes me wonder if having a bug-out property is a waste of time in that type of situation.
In honor of RebNavy: "Then call us Rebels if you will, we glory in the name, for bending under unjust laws and swearing faith to an unjust cause, we count as greater shame". Richmond Daily Dispatch May 12 1862

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Re: Proof of Ownership of Real Property

Postby daaswampman » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:45 pm

Posession is not 9/10's of the law! It is a factor when no other evidence is available. Know and use the legal system or have the means to enforce it yourself. Believing old myths can get you into serious trouble.

Does anyone actually believe, that no one will step in should our current system fail? Humans love power, it is part of our nature. It may or may not be moral or kind, but someone will claim to be the law under any circumstance. Welcome to the Free State Of Swamp!

Why do they keep trying to escape to ISIL held terrotory???

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possess ... of_the_law
People rarely notice what it right in front of their eyes. The Da Vinci Code
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Re: Proof of Ownership of Real Property

Postby anita » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:50 pm

daaswampman wrote:Posession is not 9/10's of the law! It is a factor when no other evidence is available. Know and use the legal system or have the means to enforce it yourself. Believing old myths can get you into serious trouble.

Does anyone actually believe, that no one will step in should our current system fail? Humans love power, it is part of our nature. It may or may not be moral or kind, but someone will claim to be the law under any circumstance. Welcome to the Free State Of Swamp!

Why do they keep trying to escape to ISIL held terrotory???

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possess ... of_the_law


I wasn't claiming possession is 9/10ths of the law! I was just repeating the claim made by others.
In honor of RebNavy: "Then call us Rebels if you will, we glory in the name, for bending under unjust laws and swearing faith to an unjust cause, we count as greater shame". Richmond Daily Dispatch May 12 1862

Semper Fi, Sic Semper Tyrannis, Remember The Alamo, and Aide'toi et Dieu T'aidera!
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Re: Proof of Ownership of Real Property

Postby Mollypup » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:39 pm

daaswampman wrote:Posession is not 9/10's of the law! It is a factor when no other evidence is available. Know and use the legal system or have the means to enforce it yourself. Believing old myths can get you into serious trouble.

Does anyone actually believe, that no one will step in should our current system fail? Humans love power, it is part of our nature. It may or may not be moral or kind, but someone will claim to be the law under any circumstance. Welcome to the Free State Of Swamp!

Why do they keep trying to escape to ISIL held terrotory???

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possess ... of_the_law


I admit to not being certain about the possession part, but it made national news as squatters took over homes in CA and their owners had to go through lengthy & expensive legal means to get them out. I'm not even sure all of them were ever eventually forced out. I'd always thought the whole "squatter's rights" was a bunch of nonsense until that too. Humans do indeed love power. But that doesn't mean they're going to look at your paperwork and decide in your favor either.

Anita I'm sure it will depend upon what type of SHTF situation it is. That list of possibilities is endless. I was thinking along the lines of a change the world as we know it event.
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Re: Proof of Ownership of Real Property

Postby anita » Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:52 pm

Mollypup wrote: -- snip --

Anita I'm sure it will depend upon what type of SHTF situation it is. That list of possibilities is endless. I was thinking along the lines of a change the world as we know it event.


I know. My point was that there are all sorts of things that can happen, and what problems we encounter depend on what the event is. Not all events will mean we go back to the stone ages.
In honor of RebNavy: "Then call us Rebels if you will, we glory in the name, for bending under unjust laws and swearing faith to an unjust cause, we count as greater shame". Richmond Daily Dispatch May 12 1862

Semper Fi, Sic Semper Tyrannis, Remember The Alamo, and Aide'toi et Dieu T'aidera!
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Re: Proof of Ownership of Real Property

Postby gawntrail » Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:09 pm

Very good points. Thank you for the feedback. I don't really want to breach my own property, not that I wouldn't, just that it is not desirable. I would hope it wouldn't come to deadly force. I pray, if there was a squatter making a claim, they would be reasonable and simply move on.

A bigger concern of mine is the manipulation of office ... Someone who is/was 'official', but, now is just John Q like the rest of us due to whatever...... People are easily swayed by 'influence'. I'm not an organizer or a joiner, so I'm easily labeled 'outsider'. I am a live and let live Libertarian.
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