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Cast reloads for .223?

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Cast reloads for .223?

Postby Cast Iron » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:21 am

Anyone reload cast bullets for their AR15 in .223?

The only information I have found was Lyman reloading manual for a 55grn bullet, out of a 24 inch universal receiver at a max velocity of in the 2200FPS range.

Quick look on Midway USA and the largest cast bullet mold they have listed is 60grn in .225.
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby apache235 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:36 am

If you were thinking of casting lead bullets for sub-sonic loads in a .223 (bolt gun or single shot) I'd say go for it, but unless you cast very hard I think it may not be the best idea. Not that you can't do it, but jacketed is just a much better option for that little round. Leading in the barrel will be the problem and if you clog the gas port, well you will have a single shot that may be VERY hard to clean so that it works right.
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby woodchipper518 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:54 am

Great question and response. I had thought about how we would do this during SHTF times. Sounds like we won't. Guess I just keep stocking up the commercial stuff.
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby danthman114 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:12 am

Best place to ask that question would be at the cast boolits website. There was a guy there that did all the testing for an m1a and I'm sure that someone has done an ar15
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby Cast Iron » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:22 pm

apache235 wrote:If you were thinking of casting lead bullets for sub-sonic loads in a .223 (bolt gun or single shot) I'd say go for it, but unless you cast very hard I think it may not be the best idea. Not that you can't do it, but jacketed is just a much better option for that little round. Leading in the barrel will be the problem and if you clog the gas port, well you will have a single shot that may be VERY hard to clean so that it works right.


Thank you for your response.

I am doing some research, specifiably for the AR15 in a common commercially available short barrel.
The leading and gas port are great observations.

As stated in the OP, the Lyman reloading manual is out of a 24 inch universal receiver.
How many FPS would be loss using a 16 inch barreled AR15 of the same max load of a cast bullet.
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby Cast Iron » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:35 pm

woodchipper518 wrote:Great question and response. I had thought about how we would do this during SHTF times. Sounds like we won't. Guess I just keep stocking up the commercial stuff.


A most excellent observation.

Long enough time line, everyone will eventually run out of modern ammunition after a major SHTF event. Even reloading, eventually everyone will run out of bullets, smokeless powder, primers, and brass will eventually fail after so many reloads.

This next statement may make some Spider People heads explode, but everyone may want to have a black powder fire arm on hand as part of their preps.

While I was looking on line, Midway USA, for casting molds, I noted there were only ten listed for the .225.
The .309, i.e. casting for .308, there were fifty two listings. The low end of 113grn, the high end 230grn.

Granted in both calibers, some listings were for the same bullet but in a higher capacity per mold, e.g. six bullets vs. two bullets cavity mold.
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby Cast Iron » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:36 pm

danthman114 wrote:Best place to ask that question would be at the cast boolits website. There was a guy there that did all the testing for an m1a and I'm sure that someone has done an ar15


Thank you Dan for your response.

I will further my research there.

Thank you again.
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby orangetom1999 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:26 pm

I load a 250 grain Flat point bullet for my 41magnum..but it is a gas check bullet. This is the only calibration for which I have ever reloaded or shot a gas check bullet and it seems to work well in a Ruger Blackhawk in keeping down the leading. This is a hard recoiling bullet if you load it hot. It is designed for penetration..and energy delivery. I was impressed with the lack of leading as compared to some hot lead semi wadcutters I've loaded for 38 Special....non gas check.

Leading build up in the rifling can be a problem if the bullet is not sufficiently hard..in the mix.

I would think the same applies in .223 and even .308. Many people have used hard mix lead in cast bullets for .308 for years with good results. Gas Checks too.

You might want to start there for baseline figures on the hardness mix.

Overall though..I don't think the pattern is to load cast bullets as high in the speed as plated bullets...or copper bullets.

My .02,
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby Cast Iron » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:28 pm

Per Dan The Man's suggestion, I searched the cast boolits website.

Initial findings show cast bullets can be fired through a AR15 reliably with little or no leading problems.
However, certain bullet shapes would not feed reliably, e.g. flat nose.

FPS appears to be around 2200FPS out of a 16inch barrel. One poster was getting 2800FPS, but that was out of a 20inch barrel.

Gas checks are required, as well as lube, and a sizing die: .225 seem to get the best accuracy results.
The harder the alloy type, seem to get the better accuracy.

Dacron appears to be the best filler.

This has been an interesting research project. Things to consider for a SHTF like situation and if one has thought of cast bullets from wheel weights.
Caliber needs to be taken into consideration.
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby Cast Iron » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:47 pm

orangetom1999 wrote:I load a 250 grain Flat point bullet for my 41magnum..but it is a gas check bullet. This is the only calibration for which I have ever reloaded or shot a gas check bullet and it seems to work well in a Ruger Blackhawk in keeping down the leading. This is a hard recoiling bullet if you load it hot. It is designed for penetration..and energy delivery. I was impressed with the lack of leading as compared to some hot lead semi wadcutters I've loaded for 38 Special....non gas check.

Leading build up in the rifling can be a problem if the bullet is not sufficiently hard..in the mix.

I would think the same applies in .223 and even .308. Many people have used hard mix lead in cast bullets for .308 for years with good results. Gas Checks too.

You might want to start there for baseline figures on the hardness mix.

Overall though..I don't think the pattern is to load cast bullets as high in the speed as plated bullets...or copper bullets.

My .02,
Orangetom


Thank you Orange Tom for your response.

I shot a friends .41 Magnum and enjoyed it throughly. A great round. Too bad it does not have a better following.

I think you addressed several of my most recent post findings, i.e. gas checks, hardness.

Please understand my thought line on this thread is if we have a SHTF event. If one has to resort to cast bullets, what are the logistical necessities to produce those bullets, what are the limitations of those bullets out of a short barreled AR15, with reliable feeding, in not only the security sense, but hunting as well.
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby apache235 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:36 pm

If we run out of modern components (should I say when?) a good muzzle loader will be your friend. I'm not into flint locks but it may come to that. I do have modern black powder guns but they still require caps and in some cases, cartridge cases which require primers. Making black powder isn't hard, making good black powder is an art, having supplies would be something to think about and I have not until tonight.
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby Cast Iron » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:06 pm

apache235 wrote:If we run out of modern components (should I say when?) a good muzzle loader will be your friend. I'm not into flint locks but it may come to that. I do have modern black powder guns but they still require caps and in some cases, cartridge cases which require primers. Making black powder isn't hard, making good black powder is an art, having supplies would be something to think about and I have not until tonight.


Agreed.

Who here can produce modern smokeless powder, primers, brass or modern bullets without our current infrastructure?

I think caps for black powder is doable more so than primers for center fire rifles or pistols.
The technology has been around for a lot longer than smokeless, and doable for the average man than a specialist.

Least we be regulated to bow and arrows, swords and lances in a generation or two.

Something to consider.
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby orangetom1999 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:31 pm

Cast Iron wrote:
orangetom1999 wrote:I load a 250 grain Flat point bullet for my 41magnum..but it is a gas check bullet. This is the only calibration for which I have ever reloaded or shot a gas check bullet and it seems to work well in a Ruger Blackhawk in keeping down the leading. This is a hard recoiling bullet if you load it hot. It is designed for penetration..and energy delivery. I was impressed with the lack of leading as compared to some hot lead semi wadcutters I've loaded for 38 Special....non gas check.

Leading build up in the rifling can be a problem if the bullet is not sufficiently hard..in the mix.

I would think the same applies in .223 and even .308. Many people have used hard mix lead in cast bullets for .308 for years with good results. Gas Checks too.

You might want to start there for baseline figures on the hardness mix.

Overall though..I don't think the pattern is to load cast bullets as high in the speed as plated bullets...or copper bullets.

My .02,
Orangetom


Thank you Orange Tom for your response.

I shot a friends .41 Magnum and enjoyed it throughly. A great round. Too bad it does not have a better following.

I think you addressed several of my most recent post findings, i.e. gas checks, hardness.

Please understand my thought line on this thread is if we have a SHTF event. If one has to resort to cast bullets, what are the logistical necessities to produce those bullets, what are the limitations of those bullets out of a short barreled AR15, with reliable feeding, in not only the security sense, but hunting as well.



Cast Iron,

Your questions and rationale behind them..I find perfectly reasonable.

I have explored similar in the arena of can I resize 30.06 brass down to .308 Winchester as they shoot the same diameter bullets..

I have had success in this endeavor of resizing 30.06 brass down to .308 and then shooting them at the range.

I have also resized 30.06 brass down to what is called 7.7mm Japanese Arisaka for just such an rifle. My main rationale for so doing is the very unavailability of 7.7mm Jap in the local stores. Simple logistics if you prefer. And when you can find 7.7mm Arisaka ammo it is rather pricey. Price is also a form of logistical availability.

As a furtherance of this principle...making do ..I have also explored converting .308 Winchester down to .243 Winchester Brass. This even though .243 is very commonly available in the stores across this nation. My rationale for this experiment is what would I do if it was not suddenly available??

So in some sense I have been working along similar lines.

I do tend to buy bullets in bulk from certain sources...by the 250 to 500 count. Many of them cast but copper plated bullets ..rifle and pistol.

I will be stocking up on more of these in the future...no matter who is in office at the White House.

I too keep a black powder rifle and pistol around as some of the posters have stated. A crossbow too..and the materials to make my own bolts or arrows if need be.

Some good posts on this topic here.

My .02,
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby Cast Iron » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:22 am

Thank you Orange Tom for your response and others who have responded as well.

It is good to know I am not too out there in my thinking of the logistical necessities required for loading cast, possible issues and limitations. And, having a black powder back up.
I should look into bows too.

I understand the rational for stockpiling long, stockpiling deep. Without modern infrastructure, and the logistical train, what you have on hand, maybe all you have.
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby orangetom1999 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:35 am

Cast Iron,

It is good to know I am not too out there in my thinking of the logistical necessities required for loading cast, possible issues and limitations. And, having a black powder back up.
I should look into bows too.


Negative ....absolutely not.

You are spending your monies and your time. Do not let others put limitations on you ...when you are spending your time and monies....your sweat.

Mind you now...just don't get to where you are impractical and or dangerous..or stupid.


For example..I have a copy of "The Anarchist Cookbook " which I have had for over 30 years. I have no ambition to do some of the crazy wild and dangerous things in that book. I have enough practical real life experience to not do something so dangerous..or stupid. Particularly if you have family close by.

But it is interesting reading.

I have taught myself to pick locks....and even fabricate my own picks and tension levers. I do not open locks for other people in my neighborhood....for practical reasons...nor rescue them in like manner. People are so dumb and ignorant ...the first time they are missing something ...where will they be looking?? I do not advertise this skill to people in my neighborhood...but it has saved me monies when I have locked myself out of my house, garage, or truck and cars.

There are practical limitations as well as safety limitations to any plan...but it is your time and your monies..your sweat.

Just weight your decisions out practically and safely...but it is your decision, your time, and your monies, and also your responsibility. I have no ambition to become a Xerox copy of what most people think is normal or at times acceptable today.

And that is the problem in a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI...all bets are off....no PC acceptable in SHTF OR TEOTWAWKI.

Obviously I am not into PC...or what I often tend to call..."herd mentality." I do not want to be carrying the herd on my back and or expense/risk in SHTF or TEOTWAWKI.
And I have little use or respect for most of what passes for Herd Mentality today...ie..PC.

Again my .02,
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