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Cast reloads for .223?

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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby Cast Iron » Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:19 pm

orangetom1999 wrote:Cast Iron,

It is good to know I am not too out there in my thinking of the logistical necessities required for loading cast, possible issues and limitations. And, having a black powder back up.
I should look into bows too.


Negative ....absolutely not.

You are spending your monies and your time. Do not let others put limitations on you ...when you are spending your time and monies....your sweat.

Mind you now...just don't get to where you are impractical and or dangerous..or stupid.


For example..I have a copy of "The Anarchist Cookbook " which I have had for over 30 years. I have no ambition to do some of the crazy wild and dangerous things in that book. I have enough practical real life experience to not do something so dangerous..or stupid. Particularly if you have family close by.

But it is interesting reading.

I have taught myself to pick locks....and even fabricate my own picks and tension levers. I do not open locks for other people in my neighborhood....for practical reasons...nor rescue them in like manner. People are so dumb and ignorant ...the first time they are missing something ...where will they be looking?? I do not advertise this skill to people in my neighborhood...but it has saved me monies when I have locked myself out of my house, garage, or truck and cars.

There are practical limitations as well as safety limitations to any plan...but it is your time and your monies..your sweat.

Just weight your decisions out practically and safely...but it is your decision, your time, and your monies, and also your responsibility. I have no ambition to become a Xerox copy of what most people think is normal or at times acceptable today.

And that is the problem in a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI...all bets are off....no PC acceptable in SHTF OR TEOTWAWKI.

Obviously I am not into PC...or what I often tend to call..."herd mentality." I do not want to be carrying the herd on my back and or expense/risk in SHTF or TEOTWAWKI.
And I have little use or respect for most of what passes for Herd Mentality today...ie..PC.

Again my .02,
Orangetom


My apologizes Orange Tom, I was not clear.

I only meant limitations in regards to reliable functioning and feeding of cast bullets in a firearm.
Then, there is the consideration of limitations of using a cast bullet in a AR15 for hunting. IF premium bullets are no longer available, shooting cast at a lower velocity, from what I am seeing in the availably of bullet mold types, shot placement is even more important.
Of course, shot placement is alway important.
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby orangetom1999 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:18 pm

Oh....goodness me....My apologies from this end...no offense was intended or taken here.

I am just agreeing with you in that I do not think you to far out there in your thinking or rationale behind your thinking.

I have had this experience for myself with people who think I am crazy for doing prepping verses watching sports or the Kardashians ..et al...particularly at work. They tend to think I am out there.

I do not speak of this topic with anyone at work anymore except those with a similar understanding or mind set.

I even have a small rotating stash of food and medicines ..even non phone communications in my locker at work should I be stuck there for some time and due to some calamity. Same in my daily BOB. I even keep potassium Iodide in my daily BOB.



Agree totally about the feeding problems with different kinds of bullets.

I have reloaded loaded .223 bullets for a heavy barreled bolt action rifle and tried to seat the bullets out closer to the lands in the rifling. I was not thinking it through at the time but when I tried these bullets in an AR platform...the over all length was to long....and would not properly feed unless loaded by hand...one at a time. Yes definitely ..bullet shape and seating can be critical in a semi auto. I think this is called OAL or Over All Length.


You are spending and investing your time, monies, etc ....you decide and don't let others dissuade you from learning and thinking things through now..before a SHTF or even God Forbid...a TEOTWAWKI. Just be safe. If you have a family for which you are the Shepard...you have a significant load on your shoulders to consider....factor in.

The learning time is now ...during good times and plenty.

Many a person/family has found this out in this area as it is hurricane country. Since the last significant hurricane to come through here...Isabelle....more people have been thinking outside the box and the Kardashians/Cowboys...et al...and buying generators...just in case.
I salute them for thinking in that direction and not depending on FEMA and others any more than they need so do.

You are doing the same or similar thing here...expanding your thinking/ knowledge and by this your "Options."

I salute you as well for this out of the box thinking. Glad to be of some help and there are some good thoughts by other members on this thread.

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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby kappydell » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:49 pm

Cast Iron wrote:Per Dan The Man's suggestion, I searched the cast boolits website.

Initial findings show cast bullets can be fired through a AR15 reliably with little or no leading problems.
However, certain bullet shapes would not feed reliably, e.g. flat nose.

FPS appears to be around 2200FPS out of a 16inch barrel. One poster was getting 2800FPS, but that was out of a 20inch barrel.

Gas checks are required, as well as lube, and a sizing die: .225 seem to get the best accuracy results.
The harder the alloy type, seem to get the better accuracy.

Dacron appears to be the best filler.

This has been an interesting research project. Things to consider for a SHTF like situation and if one has thought of cast bullets from wheel weights.
Caliber needs to be taken into consideration.



semi-autos require hotter/higher velocity rounds to ensure their autoloading mechanisms operate properly. that is one reason I will never part with my wheel guns; they will operate at lower pressures, reducing fouling and increasing cast bullet options under emergency conditions. don't get me wrong - I love my semi-autos but do not expect to reload for them.

a very old technique to reduce lead fouling with cast lead bullets is to wrap them in a spiral of paper. it predates gas checks - looking into older, lower techniques can produce some interesting discoveries...loading less-hot loads (80% of max) helps reduce wear and tear on your firearms as well.
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby orangetom1999 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:30 am

Wow Kappydell,

Paper patch bullets...for sure.

That is exactly how they used to do it in the olde days before gas checks.

Thanks for reminding me.

Not sure , however, if it would work well in a magazine fed rifle.

But if you have little else...you can single feed said ammunition...in whatever you have.

Thanks,
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby danthman114 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:54 am

orangetom1999 wrote:Wow Kappydell,

Paper patch bullets...for sure.

That is exactly how they used to do it in the olde days before gas checks.

Thanks for reminding me.

Not sure , however, if it would work well in a magazine fed rifle.

But if you have little else...you can single feed said ammunition...in whatever you have.

Thanks,
Orangetom

The old days they didn't use modern powders and the pressures were nowhere near what you see now. This is why they invented gas checks.

Knowing how to cast is a great skill to have but I only cast for certain guns. Revolvers, muzzle loaders, shotgun slugs, and will be ordering a 220 gr rn in 310 for my 30-40 krag. I've also been looking into guns that started out as shooting black powder cartridges. Like the 45-70 or 44-40. Primers would be the hard part. You can use the white tip on strike anywhere matches and rebuild the used primers but it's not reliable at all. I've read on making fulminated mercury but I'm not keen on possibly killing myself for primers when there's flintlocks for sale everywhere. Or bows and arrows but that is another subject all together....
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby danthman114 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:56 am

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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby Cast Iron » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:23 am

orangetom1999 wrote:Oh....goodness me....My apologies from this end...no offense was intended or taken here.

I am just agreeing with you in that I do not think you to far out there in your thinking or rationale behind your thinking.

I have had this experience for myself with people who think I am crazy for doing prepping verses watching sports or the Kardashians ..et al...particularly at work. They tend to think I am out there.

I do not speak of this topic with anyone at work anymore except those with a similar understanding or mind set.

I even have a small rotating stash of food and medicines ..even non phone communications in my locker at work should I be stuck there for some time and due to some calamity. Same in my daily BOB. I even keep potassium Iodide in my daily BOB.



Agree totally about the feeding problems with different kinds of bullets.

I have reloaded loaded .223 bullets for a heavy barreled bolt action rifle and tried to seat the bullets out closer to the lands in the rifling. I was not thinking it through at the time but when I tried these bullets in an AR platform...the over all length was to long....and would not properly feed unless loaded by hand...one at a time. Yes definitely ..bullet shape and seating can be critical in a semi auto. I think this is called OAL or Over All Length.


You are spending and investing your time, monies, etc ....you decide and don't let others dissuade you from learning and thinking things through now..before a SHTF or even God Forbid...a TEOTWAWKI. Just be safe. If you have a family for which you are the Shepard...you have a significant load on your shoulders to consider....factor in.

The learning time is now ...during good times and plenty.

Many a person/family has found this out in this area as it is hurricane country. Since the last significant hurricane to come through here...Isabelle....more people have been thinking outside the box and the Kardashians/Cowboys...et al...and buying generators...just in case.
I salute them for thinking in that direction and not depending on FEMA and others any more than they need so do.

You are doing the same or similar thing here...expanding your thinking/ knowledge and by this your "Options."

I salute you as well for this out of the box thinking. Glad to be of some help and there are some good thoughts by other members on this thread.

Orangetom



No worries Orange Tom.

I thought it was a good post and some good advice.

v/r
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby Cast Iron » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:29 am

Some additional research shows the harder the alloy, the less leading, and the faster the bullet can be pushed.
The trade off is the harder alloy the less the bullet will expand if at all. Obviously the obverse is the softer the alloy, the better the expansion.
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby Cast Iron » Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:08 pm

danthman114 wrote:
orangetom1999 wrote:Wow Kappydell,

Paper patch bullets...for sure.

That is exactly how they used to do it in the olde days before gas checks.

Thanks for reminding me.

Not sure , however, if it would work well in a magazine fed rifle.

But if you have little else...you can single feed said ammunition...in whatever you have.

Thanks,
Orangetom

The old days they didn't use modern powders and the pressures were nowhere near what you see now. This is why they invented gas checks.

Knowing how to cast is a great skill to have but I only cast for certain guns. Revolvers, muzzle loaders, shotgun slugs, and will be ordering a 220 gr rn in 310 for my 30-40 krag. I've also been looking into guns that started out as shooting black powder cartridges. Like the 45-70 or 44-40. Primers would be the hard part. You can use the white tip on strike anywhere matches and rebuild the used primers but it's not reliable at all. I've read on making fulminated mercury but I'm not keen on possibly killing myself for primers when there's flintlocks for sale everywhere. Or bows and arrows but that is another subject all together....


I had the same thought while looking through the Lyman manual last night.
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby orangetom1999 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:34 pm

Knowing how to cast is indeed a great skill..and I don't mean only bullets. I know many people here on the Chesapeake Bay who cast their own lead fishing weights even though they are plentiful in the stores.

Danthman is correct about paper patches in the olde days of Black Powder. It is still a good piece of knowledge to have..paper or gas check.

I figure that if it becomes bad enough our semi guns may become single shots...if we cannot get them to correctly feed with whatever we have to feed them.


Hardness of the lead sort of reminds me of the juggling act that Knife makers have in hardness or edge keeping characteristics of certain metals.


Hard knives tend to have brittle blades ...due to the hardness. They can keep an edge much better..but they tend to be brittle and not sufficiently elastic...or over all...strong and take a beating without breaking.

If you go to elastic...you lose the edge keep qualities.

It is sort of a race for the magic do all blend of metals...and so too in lead qualities for bullets.

I had two Gerber knives years ago...which had blades made from L7 tool steel. I noted that the steel in these knives was similar to that in a good thread cutting tap. Very hard. But it was brittle. It would hold an edge wonderfully ..but if you damaged the edge it was difficult to get it back ..the metal was so hard. At the same time the blade was not one you would use to pry as so many do with a knife or a screwdriver...it would break because it was so hard..and thus brittle.

A trade off. But I did admire it's ability to keep an edge verses the cheap disposable stainless steel knives I take to work because I can afford to lose them.

Those L7 tool steel knives were fixed blades and also expensive. I would never take them to work. To many people there have no appreciation for good steel knives. I get aggravated at the number of people who will not get a knife but have the latest cell phone and must needs always borrow someone else's knife. Shoot!! ..they cannot even keep a ball point pen...and must constantly borrow a simple pen. Heck ..the cant even bring a spare cell phone battery and must often borrow someone else's charger.

I get similar with people who want me to reload ammo for them...not happening.

The race for harder or softer lead bullets for specific applications is similar.


Sorry for the rant...but I think some get the idea.

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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby Northern Freeman » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:44 pm

Assorted wheel weight lead makes for a good hard alloy, if you want it harder just add some superhard alloy and some tin to it to get where you want. Another trick is to quick cool or quench you bullets after casting and then stand them up together in a pan of water with just the top uncovered and run a torch over them to soften the tip. Soft tip hard cast bullets
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby Reloader762 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:49 pm

All my casting for rifles are of the 30 caliber variety 7.62 x 39 & 54r as well as 30-30,300 Sav. all the bullets I cast can be used in any 30 cal. rifle although some work better for the Russian calibers and some for the US calibers with a few crossovers. If I owned an AR in .223/5.56 you can bet I would be shooting cast in it as well.

Leading doesn't have to be an issue in the gas system of semi auto rifles or in the bore as long as you do things right from the start. The biggest cause of leading is either is using to soft and alloy for the velocity / load pressure an or your bullet is undersized. Wheel weight are a good alloy to start with,by themselves when air cooled right out of the mold depending on what you have as far as the alloys makeup is as it can vary somewhat your BHN is going to run from 10 to 12 on the hardness scale.

Wheel weights contain both antimony as well as traces of arsenic and can be further hardens without adding any additional alloy,water quenching your bullets straight from the mold will increase the hardness of the bullet to between 15 & 18 BHN in 24 hours. Further hardening can be achieved by the presents of the arsenic,heat treating the bullets in a toaster oven using the time and temperature method in general about 400 degrees for 1 hour then quenching will give you a BHN in the hi 20's which will be plenty hard for anything you can throw through the AR,however with most AR with standard twist barrels you velocity/RPM/Stability range is still going to limit you to the 2300 to 2400 fps. range.

Cast bullets in the 60 to 70 gr. range sized to .001 to .002" over groove dia. gas checked with a good lube give best results. Powder coating your bullet is also a plus if you have the ability to do that as it can replace the tradition lubing process. A quick check on the net will lead you to lots of various load data but if I were working up a load I would start with H-4895 using about 13.5 grs starting load till I got reliable cycling an continue till accuracy dropped off. 2" at 100 yds. would suit me just fine and is and has been done on a pretty regular basis with the velocity running around 2100 fps. with 15.0 to 16.0 grs. of H-4895.
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Re: Cast reloads for .223?

Postby Cast Iron » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:28 am

Reloader762 wrote:All my casting for rifles are of the 30 caliber variety 7.62 x 39 & 54r as well as 30-30,300 Sav. all the bullets I cast can be used in any 30 cal. rifle although some work better for the Russian calibers and some for the US calibers with a few crossovers. If I owned an AR in .223/5.56 you can bet I would be shooting cast in it as well.

Leading doesn't have to be an issue in the gas system of semi auto rifles or in the bore as long as you do things right from the start. The biggest cause of leading is either is using to soft and alloy for the velocity / load pressure an or your bullet is undersized. Wheel weight are a good alloy to start with,by themselves when air cooled right out of the mold depending on what you have as far as the alloys makeup is as it can vary somewhat your BHN is going to run from 10 to 12 on the hardness scale.

Wheel weights contain both antimony as well as traces of arsenic and can be further hardens without adding any additional alloy,water quenching your bullets straight from the mold will increase the hardness of the bullet to between 15 & 18 BHN in 24 hours. Further hardening can be achieved by the presents of the arsenic,heat treating the bullets in a toaster oven using the time and temperature method in general about 400 degrees for 1 hour then quenching will give you a BHN in the hi 20's which will be plenty hard for anything you can throw through the AR,however with most AR with standard twist barrels you velocity/RPM/Stability range is still going to limit you to the 2300 to 2400 fps. range.

Cast bullets in the 60 to 70 gr. range sized to .001 to .002" over groove dia. gas checked with a good lube give best results. Powder coating your bullet is also a plus if you have the ability to do that as it can replace the tradition lubing process. A quick check on the net will lead you to lots of various load data but if I were working up a load I would start with H-4895 using about 13.5 grs starting load till I got reliable cycling an continue till accuracy dropped off. 2" at 100 yds. would suit me just fine and is and has been done on a pretty regular basis with the velocity running around 2100 fps. with 15.0 to 16.0 grs. of H-4895.


Great post.

Thank you for the information.
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