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"Mittleider Method" Anyone doing this?Is it really worth it?

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"Mittleider Method" Anyone doing this?Is it really worth it?

Postby DR1VENbyKNOWLEDGE » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:40 pm

So a search here is not showing any results for this and I'm kinda suprised there are no threads on this here. (Or search just doesn't work)

I've been hearing about this for years and know very little but from my understanding you use sawdust as the plant media but have to fertilize WEEKLY(UGH!)....You also need to buy a special mix of some sort of food....Don't know the cost there and again if its worth it.

And there seems to an outsider be a HUGE amount of setup/building needed for this method if you strictly adhere to it...

~~BUT~~ harvest/production is supposed to be huge.

Anyone have hands on experience on this? Years in it and results?


There's a promotion going on right now from a guy on YouTube named LDSprepper(I have no affiliation with him other than being a subscriber to his YouTube channel)

There's a new book coming out on it I guess...You can get the first 22 pages of it for free by emailing him here but only till July something for those of you that know as little as I do about it... Book@LDSPrepper.com


Anyways...Just looking to find someone with experience on this...Thanks in advance.


~D~


.
In honor of RebNavy...RIP buddy. You made me smile. :)

Postby rebnavy1862 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:00 pm
Driven, are you sure you are from Kalifornia? You make a lot of sense.
Reb"Then call us Rebels if you will, we glory in the name, for bending under unjust laws and swearing faith to an unjust cause, we count as greater shame". Richmond Daily Dispatch May 12 1862
Semper Fi, Sic Semper Tyrannis, Remember The Alamo, and Aide'toi et Dieu T'aidera!
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Re: "Mittleider Method" Anyone doing this?Is it really worth

Postby NJMike » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:38 am

I wasn't familiar with this method, so I looked it up.

https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/edible ... method.htm

Per that info, the plant media sounds a lot like the Square Foot Gardening's peat/compost/vermiculite combo, just lacking the nutrient rich compost in favor of sand/sawdust with lots of fertilizer.

Not thinking I'd bother with that. I imagine there's got to be some calculus on if the cost of fertilizer is worth it vs. the crop yield, however I'd also consider the extra maintenance time.

Personally, I'd lean towards Square Foot gardening vs. MIttleider, as the use of compost is more self-sustainable than commercial fertilizer. In my opinion of course. If I lived in a sandy area next to a saw mill and fertilizer plant I might have a different view. :lol:
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Re: "Mittleider Method" Anyone doing this?Is it really worth

Postby DR1VENbyKNOWLEDGE » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:11 am

lol....My thinking too Mike.

I'm trying to keep an open mind until I learn more, but it's tuff....I'm openly biased I guess.

I started with Mels method(SQFT Gardening), and have had extreme success as an Urban gardener for living in a rental home... I've moved past Mels methods but they're still the core of any of my plantings.

I thought for sure there was someone here that was doing this method and talked about the years worth of fertilizer they had on hand.....Forget where I saw that honestly.

Hoping they or someone else chimes in here....
In honor of RebNavy...RIP buddy. You made me smile. :)

Postby rebnavy1862 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:00 pm
Driven, are you sure you are from Kalifornia? You make a lot of sense.
Reb"Then call us Rebels if you will, we glory in the name, for bending under unjust laws and swearing faith to an unjust cause, we count as greater shame". Richmond Daily Dispatch May 12 1862
Semper Fi, Sic Semper Tyrannis, Remember The Alamo, and Aide'toi et Dieu T'aidera!
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Re: "Mittleider Method" Anyone doing this?Is it really worth

Postby Gunns » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:53 am

Yep been doing it now for 2.5 years. NJMike is wrong. With a cost you can store 10 years worth of everything you need for growing food.

Plants only use 16 essential elements for growth. Organic, Sq foot gardening and the rest will always and I mean always be missing something. Organic gardening does not create all the essential elements. Organic gardening is just as expensive but I have seen organic gardeners outspend Mittleider 3 to 1.

Mittleider (MGM) essentially uses the rule of hydroponics and soil to grow in raised beds that are sterile so you don't have any of the weeding, bugs, diseases associated with organic or sq foot gardening.

I the past several years I have tested Organic, Sq Foot, Vertical Gardening and had nothing but poor results. Some of those results of course was my inexperience. Most however were because these methods do not work well in NE Texas. Now I am sure there will be those that say I am wrong and they will have proof. But I only spend maybe 15 to 30 minutes a day gardening and they spend hour on hour on hour. In SHTF do you want to spend all day tending garden? Nice target I would think. I would rather go out at night, feed and manage the garden.

I guess it really depends on what you are comfortable with and what produces for you. When someone says MGM is not organic I ask, what does Organic mean? Organic gets all its elements from the same planet. NPK, Calcium, etc. Fertilizer we use is NOT from petroleum. Its from natural elements, the same dang thing in organic except it has no harmful microbes, fungus, molds, blights and pests.
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Re: "Mittleider Method" Anyone doing this?Is it really worth

Postby Gunns » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:56 am

I don't have a big garden yet. My is all experimental. Finding what works for me. But when I make my big garden, its going to be MGM all the way.

With just to 4 by 16 foot and 1 5 by 5 foot raised bed I nearly filled my freezer already.
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Re: "Mittleider Method" Anyone doing this?Is it really worth

Postby handyman777 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:21 am

Interesting method; Something to look into.
Thanks
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Re: "Mittleider Method" Anyone doing this?Is it really worth

Postby DR1VENbyKNOWLEDGE » Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:47 pm

Gunns wrote:I don't have a big garden yet. My is all experimental. Finding what works for me. But when I make my big garden, its going to be MGM all the way.

With just to 4 by 16 foot and 1 5 by 5 foot raised bed I nearly filled my freezer already.



There we go....Thats the pics I remember seeing.

Thanks for chiming in Gunns...

So I have a few questions....

Is there a way to go auto pilot? Travel, vacation, ect....
I have been gardening in raised beds very successfully for 5+ years now...Production and plant health has been great but of course theres been some losses along the way.

I have to put in VERY little effort on a weekly basis....I run drip irrigation and I'll go weeks without touching the garden other than to admire it and plan next stages in my head for fun....Thats HUGE to be able to do that IMO.


Did you do this huge T bar thing for the growing row trellis?

and cost....What do you at an estimate have into this setup? How much did you pay for the 10 years worth of food?


Thank you very much in advance Gunns.....Your answers will help me to determine if even learning more is worth the book purchase price for me. :thumbup:
In honor of RebNavy...RIP buddy. You made me smile. :)

Postby rebnavy1862 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:00 pm
Driven, are you sure you are from Kalifornia? You make a lot of sense.
Reb"Then call us Rebels if you will, we glory in the name, for bending under unjust laws and swearing faith to an unjust cause, we count as greater shame". Richmond Daily Dispatch May 12 1862
Semper Fi, Sic Semper Tyrannis, Remember The Alamo, and Aide'toi et Dieu T'aidera!
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Re: "Mittleider Method" Anyone doing this?Is it really worth

Postby Gunns » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:41 am

DR1VENbyKNOWLEDGE wrote:
Gunns wrote:I don't have a big garden yet. My is all experimental. Finding what works for me. But when I make my big garden, its going to be MGM all the way.

With just to 4 by 16 foot and 1 5 by 5 foot raised bed I nearly filled my freezer already.



There we go....Thats the pics I remember seeing.

Thanks for chiming in Gunns...

So I have a few questions....

Is there a way to go auto pilot? Travel, vacation, ect....
I have been gardening in raised beds very successfully for 5+ years now...Production and plant health has been great but of course theres been some losses along the way.

I have to put in VERY little effort on a weekly basis....I run drip irrigation and I'll go weeks without touching the garden other than to admire it and plan next stages in my head for fun....Thats HUGE to be able to do that IMO.


Did you do this huge T bar thing for the growing row trellis?

and cost....What do you at an estimate have into this setup? How much did you pay for the 10 years worth of food?


Thank you very much in advance Gunns.....Your answers will help me to determine if even learning more is worth the book purchase price for me. :thumbup:


Its been a while since I costed anything. Once I determined I liked this I bought all I needed. LDSPrepper has a lot of videos on this technique. He has lots of videos on Sq Foot and Back to Eden too. I have seen a few online track costs and so far they are doing for far less than a grocery store for sure. You can buy in bulk. I just picked up 17-17-17 50 pound bag for less than $20 (actually they were on sale so I picked up a few more) and each bag will last two seasons for me, plus I use the mix to fertilize 15 fruit trees and 36 blackberry plants. So I use it a lot. You still need all the other fixings, just like hydroponics.

I bought the books and read them more than once before trying. Than I joined Mittleider Gardening Plus site on facebook. The current books are incorrect on the calcium requirement. They state to use lime or gypsum but neither has enough water soluble calcium for the plants. Join the page and see what its like.

As far as autopilot many put timers with moisture sensors on the water systems so that helps. You do have to do weekly feeds though. But even then you can over feed before leaving, not too much mind you and then play catch up when you get back.

MGM is a poor mans hydroponics. There are a few on our facebook page that use all water soluble materials like for hydroponics and one in particular can leave for a couple weeks and the system feeds and water his plants. Too much work and expense for me.

The T frames are for stringing up Tomatoes, cucumbers, etc and having a trellis for peas and beans. Like in mine the tomato plants are getting over 6 feet high so you let down some string and let the tomato vines curve/layout to get more growing. I have determined I will take the best four and actually start to clip them to the 4 overhead wires to create a canopy this year. Just for grins.
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Re: "Mittleider Method" Anyone doing this?Is it really worth

Postby Gunns » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:48 am

This was written by Mark Taylor on the Mittleider Garden Plus site on facebook and I have his permission to post it.


Organic fertilizers or Chemical fertilizers
MARK TAYLOR·FRIDAY, MARCH 31, 2017

Organic fertilizers or Chemical fertilizers

The “Organic” verses “Chemical Fertilizer” thing really needs to be set straight in my opinion.

In the minds of most Gardeners, there is “Organic Gardening” and “Chemical fertilization”.

One sounds so nice and natural. The other, by just one word, sounds dangerous.

Let's first correct the improper use of language when describing the fertilization of crops.

An “organic” garden is one that uses compost, manure, eggshells, fish emulsion and other things of this nature to fertilize the plants. To be specific, Organic is something that is, once was, or was derived from a living organism. Organism > organic, makes sense to me.

The “Chemical fertilizer” thing.

To start with, if it is not organic, it can only be one other thing....inorganic.

Inorganic is best described as something that is derived from material such as rock, air, water or a gas. To be specific, all elements found on earth are inorganic matter. Because all so- called “chemical fertilizers” are derived from rock or air they are specifically inorganic fertilizers.

So when it comes to nutrients for plants (or any living organism) it is either derived from organic or inorganic matter.

Now we are going to get serious and real concerning that “Chemical” thing.

These days, the word “chemical” is the most stigmatized word in science that I can think of. It has become synonymous with the words danger or poison. In gardening “chemical” is the ultimate dirty word.

While applying some inarguable science, we are going to find that chemicals are actually Mother Nature's ultimate tool.

So what is a chemical? It is matter that has constant composition and characteristics. The most basic of chemicals are the elements found in the periodic table. In science they are known as chemical elements.
Bind two or more of these chemical elements together and you get chemical compounds such as nitric acid and vitamin C.

To begin this journey, let's start out in the “Organic” garden. Dinner left overs, cow dung, fish guts, bat crap, tree leaves, egg shells. you name it.

If it is, or once was a living organism , or was excreted by an organism.... it is organic. Pile it all into a heap and begin composting. Decomposition is the word used but how many of us really know what that means? To a plant it means complete decomposition down to the molecular level or “I ain't eating it”.

So you have your pile of compost and your out turning it one day and notice it seems to be steaming and is pretty smelly. This is what is going on in there. Countless organisms from bacteria to all types of crawling and wiggling creatures are munching away on everything, including one another or it's neighbor's excrement. This is is a living reaction chamber. The series of chemical reactions occurring in this pile are countless and that smelly steam is just a tiny part of it. These are just a few of the chemical compounds that cause the smell alone.

Hydrogen sulfide, Carbon oxysulfide, Carbon disulfide, Dimethyl sulfide, Dimethyl disulfide, Dimethyl trisulfide, Methanethiol, Ethanethiol Aminomethane, Dimethylamine, Trimethylamine, and Ammonia.

Talk about chemicals!

The notion that Organic gardening uses no chemicals is a complete fallacy. The process (decomposition) of breaking down just the nitrogen component from organic matter into a plant ready nutrient involves all of the following chemical compounds.

Ammonia, Hydrazine, Hydroxylamine, Nitrogen gas, Nitrous oxide, Nitric oxide, Nitrous acid, Nitrogen dioxide, and Nitric acid.

I could bore you to sleep with the thousands of chemical compounds found during the decomposition process, but imagine the ones that are associated with just the 13 essential plant nutrients found in soil.

So the organic garden is far from being “chemical free”. Along with systems like a rain forest, an organic garden is one of the most complex chemical reaction sites on earth.

For nutrition, every single living plant in this system requires that each decomposing piece of organic material be striped of chemical bonds and exist at a molecular level in water as these precise nutrients.

NO3- NH4+ HPO4-2 H2PO4- K+ Ca+2 Mg+2 SO4-2 Fe+2 Fe+3 Cu+2 Cu+ Zn+2 Mn+2 MnO4- HMoO4 MoO4-2 H3BO3 B4O7-2 Cl-

Now that so-called “chemical fertilizer” thing.

First it must be understood that these fertilizers are not made in the sense that we actually create any of the chemical elements they are comprised of.

The nitrogen component of these fertilizers is most commonly removed from our air through the Haber Bosch Process. All others are extracted from the ground. We use a series of chemical reactions that removes specific chemical elements from their origins and reorganize them into forms that are water soluble. Sound familiar?
Re-composition rather than decomposition.

To imagine that any of these very basic chemical elements or the resulting compounds are man made is pure fantasy. Every single chemical compound in these fertilizers is a naturally occurring compound that can be found almost everywhere on this planet.

In your garden, the only thing that separates these chemical compounds by any means whatsoever is from whence they were derived. From organic material or from inorganic material. The specific nutrient HPO4-2 (phosphorous) can be extracted from animal urine or rock …..take your pick.

Now, scroll back up to that list of precise nutrients for plants.

Every single one of them is inorganic matter.

This is a fact, some portion of your organic garden must be completely striped of its organic origins (through a series of naturally occurring chemical syntheses) to become an absolutely inorganic nutrient, or your garden will die.

In fact, everything in your garden was derived from inorganic material from the very beginning and everything in it will eventually return to its inorganic origins.

That “chemical fertilizer” thing and the nonsensical fear that is pushed with its use is a straight up pile of contrived BS.

Everything on this planet is a chemical element or compound thereof.

We ourselves are an assemblage of chemical compounds.....organic for the time being!
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Re: "Mittleider Method" Anyone doing this?Is it really worth

Postby DR1VENbyKNOWLEDGE » Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:47 am

Good stuff Gunns...Thank you! :thumbup:

I'll check out the FB group.....

The "Organic" gardening thing...???......... Never bought into it, never will....Pure marketing ploy.

I use the word organic to make others feel comfortable :innocent: ...lol....Some folks just don't want to think for themselves once they've been sold something thru mass hysteria and only get angry if you force them to question their own beliefs.

Don't get me started on the Global Warming BS...lol. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Thanks again Gunns...
In honor of RebNavy...RIP buddy. You made me smile. :)

Postby rebnavy1862 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:00 pm
Driven, are you sure you are from Kalifornia? You make a lot of sense.
Reb"Then call us Rebels if you will, we glory in the name, for bending under unjust laws and swearing faith to an unjust cause, we count as greater shame". Richmond Daily Dispatch May 12 1862
Semper Fi, Sic Semper Tyrannis, Remember The Alamo, and Aide'toi et Dieu T'aidera!
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Re: "Mittleider Method" Anyone doing this?Is it really worth

Postby sageprice » Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:47 pm

May years ago, when I was looking into "hydroponics" I was told that the media didn't matter and a solution of hydroponic fertilizer plant food https://www.gardenculturemagazine.com/g ... never-mix/
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Re: "Mittleider Method" Anyone doing this?Is it really worth

Postby daaswampman » Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:28 pm

I use this system in my greenhouse garden, it does work, but I feel it is too problematic and intensive for survival gardening. Deep mulch gardening is far simpler, less work, and can be used for larger scale and gorilla applications.

I would suggest finding a copy of The Ruth Stout No-Work Garden Book as a primer and then explore permaculture in general. My Armageddon Garden is now over six years old (maybe more-time flies), costs nothing to maintain and NEVER requires fertilizer or water! A good deal of up front work hauling mulch, but the rest is time and nature.

The best part is you can prepare a garden site years in advance and it just sits there unnoticed until needed. It's how nature does it, but people still think they can improve on perfection. Swamp
People rarely notice what it right in front of their eyes. The Da Vinci Code
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Re: "Mittleider Method" Anyone doing this?Is it really worth

Postby NJMike » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:43 am

Gunns wrote:Yep been doing it now for 2.5 years. NJMike is wrong. With a cost you can store 10 years worth of everything you need for growing food.


Happy to be wrong. :)

I don't dispute that this method could work for others depending on their space, climate, and logistics. Don't think at this point it would work for me.

Appreciate you very much supplying the first hand experience. Still interested in the cost benefit analysis (upfront + maintenance >= ouput) if you're able to calc that out.
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Re: "Mittleider Method" Anyone doing this?Is it really worth

Postby DR1VENbyKNOWLEDGE » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:34 am

daaswampman wrote:I use this system in my greenhouse garden, it does work, but I feel it is too problematic and intensive for survival gardening. Deep mulch gardening is far simpler, less work, and can be used for larger scale and gorilla applications.

I would suggest finding a copy of The Ruth Stout No-Work Garden Book as a primer and then explore permaculture in general. My Armageddon Garden is now over six years old (maybe more-time flies), costs nothing to maintain and NEVER requires fertilizer or water! A good deal of up front work hauling mulch, but the rest is time and nature.

The best part is you can prepare a garden site years in advance and it just sits there unnoticed until needed. It's how nature does it, but people still think they can improve on perfection. Swamp



Hmm...another new(but older) method for me...lol.

Thanks Swamp
In honor of RebNavy...RIP buddy. You made me smile. :)

Postby rebnavy1862 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:00 pm
Driven, are you sure you are from Kalifornia? You make a lot of sense.
Reb"Then call us Rebels if you will, we glory in the name, for bending under unjust laws and swearing faith to an unjust cause, we count as greater shame". Richmond Daily Dispatch May 12 1862
Semper Fi, Sic Semper Tyrannis, Remember The Alamo, and Aide'toi et Dieu T'aidera!
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Re: "Mittleider Method" Anyone doing this?Is it really worth

Postby Norman11 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:12 pm

The original question concerned sawdust as a media for the garden. From experience my answer would be NO. Sawdust by itself needs nitrogen and absorbs it from the surrounding soil in order to compost. That's why they tell you to fertilize. I live n southern Calif. and have clay soil. When first here I used to pick up truck loads of sawdust from the wood shop to add to my compost pile then sprinkle sulfate of ammonia for the nitrogen, on the compost to hurry the decomposition. So now the answer has changed because I believe that the process of composting is more beneficial to the soil and plants and the quality of our produce. It can help if composted, but alone it will absorb the nitrogen the plants to grow.
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