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Electricity

General discussions including topics about living off grid

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Re: Electricity

Postby daaswampman » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:42 pm

There are thousands of abandoned and capped shallow gas wells in many areas. While they may not have any economic value, they may continue to produce for centuries. The whole process can be inexpensive and simple. Swamp
People rarely notice what it right in front of their eyes. The Da Vinci Code
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Re: Electricity

Postby John Galt 1 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:10 pm

Well there are no gas wells around here and I wouldn't know how to capture the gas if there were. I'd suggest that you figure it out since you've got so many close by.
Talk is cheap, actions count.
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Re: Electricity

Postby JoyDog » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:45 pm

We own our own drill rig. We have drilled 5 wells around 400 ft. We have water but no gas. We have neighbors that have drilled 400 ft and have gas but no water.
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Re: Electricity

Postby daaswampman » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:02 pm

John Galt 1 wrote:Well there are no gas wells around here and I wouldn't know how to capture the gas if there were. I'd suggest that you figure it out since you've got so many close by.


Done deal! Swamp
People rarely notice what it right in front of their eyes. The Da Vinci Code
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Re: Electricity

Postby oldasrocks » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:13 pm

Years ago I experimented making alcohol with sugar beets. I could get close to a gallon of 180 proof with 10 lbs of sugar beets. I ran my old car with a 20% mixture in it. Ran fine, Started hard in the winter. I still have a small bottle of the alcohol.

Much more efficient that corn to produce alcohol. I watched a snow on Brazil where they were supposedly running cars with alcohol. Worked like the old MD's-(gas starter to diesel) a gas starter motor and then switched to 100% alcohol. Motors were built by the Ford motor company. They were using sugar cane. never heard any more about it.
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Re: Electricity

Postby JohnEE » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:02 am

Hey John Galt,

"Solar panels themselves are fairly resilient to EMP"

Why do you say that? Isn't the solar cell a photo PN junction?

Thanks,
John
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Re: Electricity

Postby JoyDog » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:18 am

John Galt 1 wrote:
JoyDog wrote:How do we find people kike this?


People like what? who know about power production or hermits?

As far as the hermits go Jeff was on his bike and just swing by my shop for some water.



The hermit! Everyone we meet wants someone to take care of them. We take care of ourselves and a few other people but would like friends that can make it on their own.
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Re: Electricity

Postby John Galt 1 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:04 pm

Jeff's problem was that he was mildly schizophrenic. He had worked for the National Park service for 14 years and they provided uniforms (little clothing costs) and lodging including much of his food. Since he was so anti-social he rarely went anywhere and saved most of his pay. He then moved to a shack his Uncle had abandoned and budgeted $800 a month to live on which he had been doing for 9 years before I met him. He still had about $90,000 in the bank when I met him.

He wasn't looking for any help but a little company occasionally. He was eccentric but I enjoyed his company.
Talk is cheap, actions count.
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Re: Electricity

Postby John Galt 1 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:08 pm

JohnEE wrote:Hey John Galt,

"Solar panels themselves are fairly resilient to EMP"

Why do you say that? Isn't the solar cell a photo PN junction?

Thanks,
John


It's generally agreed by people who know more about EMP than me that the panels will survive an EMP but the 3 diodes in the back of each panel may burn out. They are usually easy to change so I keep a bag of spares and a butane soldering iron.

It's the inverters and charge controllers that would be damaged by an EMP.
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Re: Electricity

Postby JoyDog » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:22 pm

John Galt 1 wrote:Jeff's problem was that he was mildly schizophrenic. He had worked for the National Park service for 14 years and they provided uniforms (little clothing costs) and lodging including much of his food. Since he was so anti-social he rarely went anywhere and saved most of his pay. He then moved to a shack his Uncle had abandoned and budgeted $800 a month to live on which he had been doing for 9 years before I met him. He still had about $90,000 in the bank when I met him.

He wasn't looking for any help but a little company occasionally. He was eccentric but I enjoyed his company.



I may be more than mildly schizophrenic so I can understand! My wife and I would like to find GOOD friends.
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Re: Electricity

Postby Halmic73 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:00 pm

What is the electricity used for after SHTF?

You could accomplish much of the work that electricity performs with wind and hydro but you are at the mercy of the source. Electricity is convenient and is available on demand and at great distances from its source which is one of the contributing factors to industrialization.

If your only concern is to generate electricity than just consider the load and scrounge for power sources after SHTF.

Treadmills are often made with permanent magnet motors which can be converted into a generator,plus there are plenty of vehicle options for alternators. Don't forget locomotive engines for high power loads like a small town.

Even in SHTF and an EMP there will be equipment that survives. If you know what to look for and how to scrounge you can make electricity, but again, what do you need to power that won't attract marauders?
If you ain't got time to do it right the first time you won't have time to do it right the second time.
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Re: Electricity

Postby JohnEE » Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:44 am

Hey John,

I think you might have gotten the idea of solar panels being fairly robust at the following link,

https://www.backdoorsurvival.com/will-s ... rvive-emp/

I agree with George (the authors friend who provides the input) with much of what he says, and I like the approach associated with breaking the Solar energy system into antennas. I further agree that a good whole house suppressor is required (not the most expensive, but rather one that is rated for E2 (lightening) and E3 (EMP long pulse)). This keeps the Grid from doing damage to the whole house for E2 and E3. But EMP's E1(fast and intense) is and has always been the problem pulse component. I likewise agree that inverters and charge controllers would likely not survive the E1 pulse.

I was searching around professional papers on the subject and found the following Table in the paper defined below,
"The Induced Physical Effects on the Semiconductor Electronics under Electromagnetic Pulse" by Shurenkov, 12/15

TABLE I. SPIKES DAMAGE SEMICONDUCTOR DEVICES
Types of semiconductor devices Breakdown voltage range
Silicon high frequency bipolar transistors 15V-65V
Gallium Arsenide Field Effect Transistors 10V
High density Dynamic Random Access Memories (DRAM) 7V
Generic CMOS logic 7V-15V
Microprocessors running off 3.3V or 5V power supplies 3.3V-5V

Assuming all other factors the same, then Silicon high frequency bipolar transistors (ordinary mass produced solar panels) are more resilient. But are they resilient enough?

Shurenkov talks about degradation levels of operations. This is consistent with what I have read from someone (don't remember who) who actually performs EMP tests on military products for a living. The levels are

1) Soft kill,
1a)Upset - glitch in operations,
1b)Lock-up - requires re-initialization,
2) Hard-Kill,
2b) Latch-up requires power removal and re-initialization, and
2b) Damage/Burnout.

This someone who works in the industry (I need to find his name and article) believes that about 40% of the cars on the road will still be running after and EMP. This is based on the shielding (poor, but lots of it due to the intrinsic ugly RF environment in and around a car engine) and the robustness of the transistors (typically 20 year old Si bipolar).

Keeping in mind that solar panels are Si bipolar, but have no shielding and are not designed around a tough RF environment, I believe their susceptibility would be higher than that of similar semiconductors in cars.

The real question is how much voltage is induced on a conductor, when exposed to a pulse field strength of 10,000 W/cm^2, and a raise time of 100ns.

Let me see if I can take a cut at this solution... stay tuned....

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Re: Electricity

Postby TRex2 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:53 am

JohnEE wrote:...

The real question is how much voltage is induced on a conductor, when exposed to a pulse field strength of 10,000 W/cm^2, and a raise time of 100ns.

Let me see if I can take a cut at this solution... stay tuned....

JohnEE

I hadn't really thought this though, either, but wouldn't it depend on polarity and angle of interception of whatever lies in the field? I will admit this stuff has crossed my mind before, but other than acknowledging that many of the items that we think will burn out may be spared, I never gave it much thought.

I haven't been in a physics lab, or equivalent job, for about 30 years
so I am "more than a bit" rusty on this stuff.

Except for the portion of the EMP damage zone just South of directly below the detonation, most of the magnetic flux generated by the Compton effect will be dependent on which direction the Gamma Rays were traveling when they entered the Atmosphere. Ultimately, though, would you expect the end result that elections in effected equipment to be driven directly away from the detonation point, or at a right angle?

I am looking at this as a lead to the idea of:
"could this knowledge of which way the electrons will be driven
be useful to limit damage" ?

But I will have to say that I am outmatched by the question, at this time.
Calling Islam a religion isn't much different than calling Nazism or Communism a religion.
Both were also political movements with a religious component, just like Islam.
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Re: Electricity

Postby John Galt 1 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:25 pm

Ok, Apparently this thread is moving towards EMP effects. I have read numerous articles over the years, some I fully comprehended, others I only caught the gist of what they were saying. But it is generally agreed that solar panels should survive an EMP.

Dr Author Bradly works for NASA and has several videos out on EMP, some using NASA testing equipment. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=em ... &FORM=VIRE
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Dr ... ORM=VRDGAR

He has a testing video on solar panels but I can't find it at the moment. The panel showed no damage and the diodes survived.

I've also seen an emp test video on a running car. They zapped the car as it drove through a large EMP generator. The engine died but the power windows and lights still worked. From what I understand most cars that are not running will survive a strong EMP.

My home is 90% solar powered and I have 5 high quality surge protectors wired into the system. 3 DC, each matched to the line's voltage and 2 on the AC side. Interesting testing video on the SPDs I use. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mi ... &FORM=VIRE
Still, even with the SPDs I doubt the solar electronics would survive a strong EMP but they should be fine from a lightening strike. Actually got a good test with lightning last year with no damage.
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Re: Electricity

Postby sageprice » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:51 pm

I thought this forum was about electricity. On that pretense I will try to arrive on an understanding. You really do not need as much power as you are using now. Your total power draw should be in three areas. Lighting refrigeration and pumping. By storing water in the freezer, it maintains coldness. The freezer can run when not using the well pump. You have to think survival verses comfort. Barrels of water is more important than HVAC. Still, I haven't met a lot of preppers that are set up for water secondary storage. In the boy scouts we used a 55 gallon drum on its side to heat water. Three valves controlled this process. One on the high end to vent steam. one to fill with water and the third on the low end to vent the hot water. simple operation but time consuming. open steam vent, fill, build fire under drum. partially close vent, drain hot water to kitchen or bath. Open steam vent refill repeat. It's dangerous if you don't mind the process and let pressure build to high. Still, it's worth the hot bath without electricity. There, You can live without a huge amount of electricity. All it requires is a little prepping. you don't need a huge generator.
To paraphrase, put only a little spark in your life, you can have your water and drink it too. This is survival
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